 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Jamnik
Date: 2015-02-11 02:12
I'm needing some input/ideas as to lining the bore of an upper joint. Has anyone experimented with this? I have a horn with repaired cracks that absorbes too much moisture while playing which causes the existing cracks to open. I thought bore oil should form enough of a moisture barrier to avoid this but it doesn't. I think a thin lined rubber bore would eliminate this issue. Thoughts?
Jamnik
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-02-11 03:02
I think it's an excellent idea - a lot of oboes have partially and fully lined top joints nowadays (as well as bushed toneholes), so why not clarinets?
Some Selmer 10G clarinets have ebonite lined barrels and there have been clarinet specialists in the US who have reamed out and fitted ebonite bore linings to clarinets, so it's not something that's new, only something that isn't offered as an option or standard issue by most makers.
Yamaha offer a plastic lined top joint YCL-450 clarinet which is a step in the right direction, now it's up to other makers to follow suit to offer this on pro level clarinets:
http://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical-instruments/winds/clarinets/bb-clarinets/ycl-450nm/?mode=model
If you think shakuhachis have had lacquered bores for centuries (and there are modern ones with cast lined bores), then why is it taking so long for this kind of thing to be offered on modern woodwind instruments?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2015-02-11 04:00)
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2015-02-11 03:04
You didn't mention the model of clarinet.
You would probably have a different sounding clarinet after it is done.
A local symphony player had the top portion of the upper joint done by a well known clarinet maker. It is not in tune and he still has a problem with cracks.
I would start by doing a beeswax treatment in the bore and tone holes.
Steve Ocone
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-02-11 03:19
Chris P wrote:
> I think it's an excellent idea - a lot of oboes have partially
> and fully lined top joints nowadays (as well as bushed
> toneholes), so why not clarinets?
>
> Some Selmer 10G clarinets have ebonite lined barrels and there
> have been clarinet specialists in the US who have reamed out
> and fitted ebonite bore linings to clarinets,
Chris, how do-able is retrofitting a polycylindrical bore with an ebonite lining? Is it easier (I would think) with a straight bore?
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-02-11 03:27
If whoever doing this has all the correct reamers for doing the enlarging (a cylindrical reamer) and then the finished bore shape (polycylindrical as per the instrument's specifications) as well as all the correct size and shape tonehole undercutters, then it should be possible to do this on any wooden clarinet. But only entrust this sort of work on someone with absolute knowledge on what they're doing.
This sort of thing would be much easier to do during manufacture rather than later on, although it is still possible to retrofit a bore lining.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Jamnik
Date: 2015-02-11 03:36
Steven. It is a Selmer Recital. I am going to try the beeswax if Selmer decides not to replace the cracked joint. She has played it 14 months since new and it hasn't been played more than 20-30 minutes per day until five months ago. Since then it has seen 3-4 hours per day five days a week with an hour each day on weekends.
Jamnik
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2015-02-11 04:28
When my Clark Fobes cocobolo A barrel cracked a couple of years ago, much to my dismay, I contacted Mr. Fobes and he sent me a prototype of a rubber-lined cocobolo barrel he was in the process of developing, which has worked very well. I figured it would sound much different than a solid wood barrel, but I was surprised by how similar it actually is. I believe he sells them on his website now.
Anyways, I visited his workshop in San Francisco a few months ago, and he showed me his process of creating the rubber-lined barrels. He makes the wooden part of the barrel with an oversized "bore", then simply press-fits the rubber bore (or perhaps it was a solid rubber plug, into which he drilled and reamed the bore after inserting it?) into the barrel using a little glue to make sure it holds in place. He says the glue is more of a precaution, as for the most part the rubber stays in place simply from bring press-fitted.
As far as I'm aware, there's no reason this couldn't be done on a clarinet; you'd just have to re-drill a larger bore in the upper joint and make a long rubber plug of the same diameter that could be press-fitted into the bore, then re-drill and re-ream the bore. Then you'd have to re-drill and undercut the tone holes. Obviously this would have to be done by a repair tech who really knows what he or she is doing.
Post Edited (2015-02-11 04:29)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2015-02-11 05:05
Wasn't it common for Rossi clarinets to have a hard rubber bore or be repaired that way or something of the like?
It should work fine. Finding someone that can/will do a good job on it might be tough, but possible.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Ed Lowry
Date: 2015-02-11 05:14
Rossi lined the bore of his clarinets for awhile, I believe with hard rubber. I think it was a brief experiment. At any rate, he doesn't do that now.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-02-11 05:37
As Chris implies, this is highly skilled work requiring a great many tools highly specialized for the specific instrument being done. I can't imagine there are more than a handful, if that many, in North America who would be both capable of the work and willing to invest in the tools. Even then, they might well specialize in retrofitting a specific make/model, which would only require one set of tools.
Could this be economically feasible for a repair shop? Or, put the other way, could a technician, however highly skilled, do this for a cost that wouldn't exceed that of simply replacing the joint?
Karl
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-02-11 05:49
maxopf wrote:
> When my Clark Fobes cocobolo A barrel cracked a couple of years
> ago, much to my dismay, I contacted Mr. Fobes and he sent me a
> prototype of a rubber-lined cocobolo barrel he was in the
> process of developing, which has worked very well.
As Chris mentioned, the standard barrels supplied with the Selmer 10G as originally marketed (beginning in the early 1970s) had hard rubber linings. Hans Moennig had been doing this with Buffet barrels by hand in his shop, and it was one of the changes that Anthony Gigliotti had Selmer copy when the 10G was designed. The major techs in Philadelphia (and I assume in many other places) will do this on request with any barrel (I have had several done). But this is a lot easier than an upper section would be - the barrel's bore is either a straight cylinder or a reverse taper, which requires at most two reamers, with no holes bored in from the side.
Karl
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Author: efsf081
Date: 2015-02-11 06:30
Someone told me that, at this few years Patricola standard boehm clarinet's upper joint are all lined with rubber. Is it true?
I have a barrel lined with rubber and I think it is a great idea.
Post Edited (2015-02-11 06:30)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2015-02-11 06:32
We had a patricola at our last band. Looked like standard grenadilla to me. Good C clarinet, that's for sure.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Jamnik
Date: 2015-02-11 06:39
The cost to retrofit an assembled joint with a hard rubber sleeve would probably cost more than the replacement joint Karl. I was thinking more of a very thin layer of a liquid type rubber or latex that would not require a reamer to increase the bore diameter. The beeswax application with a horsehair or similar rifle style bore brush to smooth and ensure an even coating is more along the process I was originally considering and will most likely attempt if Selmer declines to replace the joint. Getting a very thin layer of latex or flexible rubber would be a tough chore to accomplish in my opinion.
Jamnik
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Author: saxlite
Date: 2015-02-11 06:49
Aha! I notice in the majority of the above posts that nobody is reporting a great change in tone quality- this gets back to the age - old quandry about what determines the tone of a woodwind instrument- materials or strictly bore dimensions. Looks like some very knowledgeable manufacturers went the bore dimensions route on some top quality instruments! Let the fun begin (resume?) !!
Jerry
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2015-02-11 06:52
I did notice a change in tone with the rubber-lined barrel, it just wasn't a change for the worse, or a change to sounding dramatically different from wood. The sound is maybe a little brighter.
I do notice a change for the worse with all-plastic instruments. (I've never tried an all-rubber instrument.)
Post Edited (2015-02-11 06:54)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2015-02-11 07:18
Guy Chadash http://www.chadashclarinet.com/index.html will ream out the entire upper joint bore and install a Delrin sleeve, which he reams to the original Buffet R13 dimensions he uses on his own custom-made clarinets.
It may be that he works only on Buffets, and the Selmer Recital has a significantly different bore. Nevertheless, he's an excellent workman, and it would be worth getting in touch with him.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-02-11 08:26
What would probably be better than reaming the bore oversize with a completely cylindrical reamer to receive the lining is to use a very slightly tapered reamer so the oversized bore is at its widest at the top end as the top tenon is much wider compared to the middle tenon, as is the finished bore. Then a lining with the same taper is then glued in place.
That will ensure a perfect fit between both surfaces so there won't be any voids due to the adhesive being pushed out of the lining is cylindrical and a tight fit. Then once the lining is in place and the adhesive has gone off, the ends of the lining protruding from the ends of both the tenons can be made flush, or metal tenon caps can be fitted to both tenons hide the join.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: saxlite
Date: 2015-02-11 11:12
maxopf- if a plastic instrument had the specially tapered bore ( vs a straight cylinder ) and hand reamed undercut tones like a good wood clarinet gets, I think you would get results much more like the wood clarinet. Tom Ridenour does it all the time with his hard rubber instruments with excellent results.
Jerry
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Author: pewd
Date: 2015-02-11 21:41
I have one (1950 Buffet - pre R13) that had extensive cracking.
The top 2-3" of the bore was drilled out, and a Delrin sleeve inserted, followed by new tone holes, etc. Plays wonderfully.
Take it to an expert, with experience with this type of repair.
The work on my instrument was performed by John Butler in Sugar Land, TX.
http://www.jbwinds.com/
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-02-11 21:45
I think Yamaha has a student clarinet with a hard rubber bore in the upper joint.
Gosh! Why go to all this trouble trying to mitigate issues with wood, when really good hard rubber and plastic clarinets are available?
Seems like such an expensive hassle and compromise ...
Tom
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-02-12 00:06
Chris P wrote:
> What would probably be better than reaming the bore oversize
> with a completely cylindrical reamer to receive the lining is
> to use a very slightly tapered reamer so the oversized bore is
> at its widest at the top end as the top tenon is much wider
> compared to the middle tenon, as is the finished bore. Then a
> lining with the same taper is then glued in place.
>
> That will ensure a perfect fit between both surfaces so there
> won't be any voids due to the adhesive being pushed out of the
> lining is cylindrical and a tight fit.
Chris, putting aside the issue of cost and whether this kind of work is economically worthwhile as a retrofit (as opposed to manufacturing the clarinet this way at the factory), I'm interested in how this would actually be done.
(1) How would you cut "a lining with the same taper" as the reamed bore? Would this be skilled lathe work, or would you need some kind of computer-guided cutting machinery? Or could you mold or cast the rubber?
(2) How would you know for certain there were no voids between the lining and the reamed wood? What would the consequence be if there were?
If the joint is lined at the factory, is this how they do it? Or do they take the more straightforward path of drilling a cylindrical bore and pushing in a rubber cylinder then drilling and reaming the rubber to specs?
Karl
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Author: BobD
Date: 2015-02-12 01:55
Hey.....how about a clarinet made of metal!
Bob Draznik
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Author: BobD
Date: 2015-02-12 01:57
Hey.....how about a clarinet made of metal!
Bob Draznik
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-02-12 02:56
So what hard rubber to wood ratio is acceptable?
I just wonder if a thick coating of polyurethane might work just as well? Of course, you would have to allow for the thickness of the paint in the design ...
I think it would be ideal if you made the instrument out of plastic and just applied a thin, self-adhesive veneer ... then you could chose Oak, Knotty Pine, Hickory, Maple ... anything!
Metal would be great and has been done before ... double walled would be best to keep the feel and balance ...
Tom
Post Edited (2015-02-12 02:58)
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Author: CocoboloKid
Date: 2015-02-12 03:13
I had the same thought, then I just went and bought an entire hard rubber clarinet (Ridenour's Libertas). Fixed all those problems in one go! So far, it's been one year, five countries, 200+ venues, temperature variants of 100+ degrees, and not a single crack or moisture problem  Looks like you're in Fort Worth, you should give Tom Ridenour a ring!
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Author: Jamnik
Date: 2015-02-12 09:29
CocoboloKid wrote:
> I had the same thought, then I just went and bought an entire
> hard rubber clarinet (Ridenour's Libertas). Fixed all those
> problems in one go! So far, it's been one year, five countries,
> 200+ venues, temperature variants of 100+ degrees, and not a
> single crack or moisture problem Looks like you're in Fort
> Worth, you should give Tom Ridenour a ring!
I do have two of Tom Ridenour's Lyriques 576B and 576BC. Great horns and durable. The Selmer with the issue is the one she really loves to play. I called Tom before posting this thread. I think that anyone that is ever in the Dallas area that is serious about clarinets would be intrigued about his vast knowledge. He has probably forgotten more about clarinets than most of us will ever know! Super nice man!
TomS, I was also thinking about varnish but was unsure of the effect that it may have on the wood. Thompsons water seal was another thought but still the unknown of immediate and long term issues. The beeswax treatments seems most logical due to ease of application and the ability to repel water. Plus it can be removed easier than anything that could soak into the bore or that dries on the surface.
Jamnik
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Author: GLHopkins
Date: 2015-02-12 18:51
There is a lot of talk about the moisture causing the problem, and solving this by a sealed bore. I'm more inclined to think the cracking problem may be related to temperature change. Playing a cold clarinet before it is warmed up can cause the instrument to crack....especially on an instrument with thick walls...in my opinion. ...........................I haven't seen the instrument, but at this point, I might suggest that you have cracks sealed with CA and put 2-3 carbon fiber bands on the upper section of the joint.
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Author: Jamnik
Date: 2015-02-12 19:35
Attachment: image.jpg (1226k)
Attachment: image.jpg (1312k)
GLHopkins wrote:
> There is a lot of talk about the moisture causing the problem,
> and solving this by a sealed bore. I'm more inclined to think
> the cracking problem may be related to temperature change.
> Playing a cold clarinet before it is warmed up can cause the
> instrument to crack....especially on an instrument with thick
> walls...in my opinion. ...........................I haven't
> seen the instrument, but at this point, I might suggest that
> you have cracks sealed with CA and put 2-3 carbon fiber bands
> on the upper section of the joint.
I agree that the room temperature could be the issue and had done some research on this before committing to the purchase of this horn. I can say that before playing she does warm the upper joint for three to four minutes while preparing her reed, mouthpiece and ligature. She stores the instrument at a 77-79 degree F room and has an insulated freezer bag that she transports the original case and horn in during cold weather. The existing cracks are below the G tone hole and into the first ring tone hole. I don't believe a circumferential band would work in this area due to tone holes and key post interference. Pins can be placed between the tone holes in this area though I believe. As you can see from the pictures, the A and G tone holes have inserts from the last repair five weeks ago and the two pins are under the Recital logo.
Can you define CA as this may also work as a bore sealant?
Jamnik
Post Edited (2015-02-12 19:59)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-02-12 20:21
With any luck the crack should terminate in the LH1 tonehole, although it has defied logic and already gone through two.
Maybe due to the extra thickness of the joints on Recitals, the stress is more profound and the crack is being forced open at the weakest points along the length of the joint.
While carbon fibre banding may not be feasible in between the tonehole chimneys due to too many pillars and toneholes in the area, it should still be considered at the top end. While the crack is open, this is the best time to run superglue into it to both seal and fill it.
I have used very low viscosity superglue as a bore sealant on my kingwood oboe - I poured it into the bore and used a letal rod to spread it around, then reamed it out with the appropriate reamers (I worked for the company that made it, so had access to their bore reamers) and so far I haven't oiled the body joints and haven't had it crack yet. I've owned this oboe since 1999 and coated the bore in superglue in around 2003 - prior to that, the oboe was made in 1995 and the top joint was replaced before I bought it as it had cracked while it was out on approval to a player at La Scala. In some ways I wish I held onto the original top joint, but it had been transplanted and the keywork was converted to dual system just before I bought it.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Jamnik
Date: 2015-02-13 10:27
Here is update #1 in applying beeswax
I have a small variable speed rotary tool with a felt wheel. Using a test barrel that is of little to no significance I applied the beeswax to the felt wheel just like you would metal polishing compound to a buffing wheel. I worked the wheel up and down the barrel bore and also the tenon area to get a thin layer that was smooth and polished in appearance. I used a broken toothpick to get the wax into the very edge of the inner tenon joint. Rotary application was done at a mid low speed on my rotary tool. Afterwards you could see the luster like that of polished shoes or smooth wood after polishing. This barrel was rather smooth to begin with but looks better now. I can feel an almost sticky drag with my finger when run across the inner tenon joint. Contrary to knowing right from wrong, I placed a few drops of water in the barrel and it is like water off of a ducks back so I put a teaspoon of water into the barrel and then looked for non beaded areas but could find none. With a fling of the barrel all the beaded water droplets were gone and the inner barrel required no drying with a cloth. I will have to wait until tomorrow to play test this barrel and provide data in comparison to an unwaxed barrel. Applying the beeswax to the upper joint will consume much more time due to size, the vents, and total depth.
With the wax sealing the wood from the inside should I wipe the outside of the barrel with oil on occasion? Being that the wood can't "breath" like it did before can anyone foresee any real or perceived wood damage or deterioration issues?
Jamnik
Post Edited (2015-02-13 17:35)
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2015-02-13 23:22
Jamnik wrote:
> Here is update #1 in applying beeswax
>
> I have a small variable speed rotary tool with a felt wheel.
> Using a test barrel that is of little to no significance I
> applied the beeswax to the felt wheel just like you would metal
> polishing compound to a buffing wheel. I worked the wheel up
> and down the barrel bore and also the tenon area to get a thin
> layer that was smooth and polished in appearance. I used a
> broken toothpick to get the wax into the very edge of the inner
> tenon joint. Rotary application was done at a mid low speed on
........................
>
> With the wax sealing the wood from the inside should I wipe the
> outside of the barrel with oil on occasion? Being that the
> wood can't "breath" like it did before can anyone foresee any
> real or perceived wood damage or deterioration issues?
>
I've used microcrystalline wax mixed with bore oil to seal porous wood with good results. Tedious to mix uniformly but worked fine. No problems applying bore oil afterwards. Beeswax will probably be not that different. The wax will eventually wear out from wiping, so it will need to be re-applied at some point.
The idea of sealing wood surface with waxes is not to make it 100% waterproof, but to reduce moisture exchange rate, so the water content in wood stays uniform.
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Author: Jamnik
Date: 2015-02-17 17:07
After applying a super thin layer of beeswax to the inside of the barrel and the top of the upper joint down to the register tube and using a soft nylon brush to get the surface smooth (similar to shining a shoe), the response and overall tone was reduced substantially. Only time from playing over the next week will tell if it will reduce moisture absorption in the upper joint to keep the cracks from opening and closing like an accordion bellow, but I won't be applying another coat if wax when the current one wears off.
Jamnik
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