 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ruben
Date: 2024-01-11 13:21
Happy New Year friends! What is the average price for a good overhaul in the US? In France, it's about 500$. Maybe there is no such thing as an average price. What about the cost of a face-lift?! ha, ha!
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2024-01-11 15:08
I'd say it's a about that. I had been quoted several overhaul estimates a year or so ago that more on the order of $400 but I'm sure prices have gone up with the cost of living.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2024-01-11 21:35
Hi ruben,
I just got off the phone with Roberto's Winds. I asked them what would be the average cost to overhaul a Leblanc Dynamic H clarinet (which belongs to another fellow on a current thread on this BB) and was told $1,050.00 plus tax. I was told that they would strip down the instrument, replace all corks and install leather pads on both joints. For cork on the upper section and leather on the lower, due to an increase of time involved, the price would be $1,150.00 plus tax and this would require that the wood be in good condition.
Yes, I consider the cost to be steep, however, I believe Roberto's has a well known reputation for doing very high quality work.
I actually called Lisa's Clarinet Shop first. Although I didn't get a chance to talk to anyone because they were busy, I looked at her website and read some interesting things. I read about players getting "fantastic deals" for a saxophone on that auction site as well as Craigslist only to find out that the instrument would require $1.150.00 worth of repairs to get it into good, playable condition. Another interesting fact that I learned concerned playablility. After an overhaul, an instrument may play completely different than it did before...and not to the player's liking.
So, this leads me to say that a player really needs to know precisely what they want done and to ask a lot of questions about how the instrument will play after the work is completed.
I could write a whole lot more about this, however, I think most people will get the gist of what I'm writing.
p.s. I just received a response from Lisa's Clarinet Shop. "Our overhauls start at $250 for playing condition and increase based on the model of clarinet and what needs to be done." (Needless to say, I like her pricing much better.)
p.p.s. Roberto's did not have a "range", but rather a set, fixed price.
Post Edited (2024-01-11 23:09)
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Author: Slowoldman
Date: 2024-01-11 23:08
That price seems to be in line with what I've been hearing (mid-Atlantic region), for the extent of service that Dan describes.
BUT, I agree with Dan that you need to define what a "complete overhaul" is, and whether that's what you need. Or do you just need lubrication and adjustment, and replacement of only some pads?
I have encountered some techs that will "only" do a "complete overhaul" that they specify, at a fixed price, while others will do "ala carte".
I don't know that one way is better than the other. Just know what you're looking for, and be aware of what you're buying.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2024-01-11 23:42
Slowoldman,
I just added a p.s. to my above post. Lisa's Clarinet Shop actually has a "range" whereas Roberto's doesn't and her prices start much, much lower.
Yes, I'm sure that a person could be found that will replace just 2 or 3 pads specified by the owner. However, there may be other things truly wrong which need to be repaired. So, the pads may be expertly replaced, however, the clarinet may still not play at its best.
So, what to do...
Not to many decades ago, there was a saying: "Never take your car to a muffler shop because if you do, they're bound to find other things, which, "in their determination" need to be repaired.
To me, what this boils down to is...reputation. This is where "word of mouth" (IMHO) becomes of paramount importance. Ask other players where they get their instrument repaired and also ask for their personal, subjective opinion as to how they were treated and how their instrument played after they got it back.
I would never advise just "price shopping" because I still believe the old saying: "you get what you pay for" still rings quite true today.
To me, again, reputation means everything. And by that I don't mean what's written on one's website. (Oh, those incredibly glowing reviews!) I mean "word of mouth" reputation.
p.s. (OT) I'll be 77 next month and I wouldn't be surprised if I walk slower than you do!
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Author: ruben
Date: 2024-01-12 00:25
Dan; thank you for your answer. Over 1000$ seems astronomical to me. The best repair person in Paris-possibly in Europe (he has players from all of the great European orchestras coming to see him), charges about half as much. Mercadier is the man's name, and he is pushing retirement age. The drawback is that he has a huge waiting-list. The repair person at Selmer here in Paris charges about 600. He's a former plumber, so he's excellent at finding leaks (I like to joke, but this is true!)
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2024-01-12 01:33
I had my eb overhauled almost 3 years ago at meridian winds in MI. They charged me $500 for polishing the key work, fixing a tenon chip, complete pad replacement with valentino master pads, oiling the wood and fully adjusting all keys and corks.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2024-01-12 01:51
Dan Shusta wrote:
Date: 2024-01-11 23:42
"...To me, what this boils down to is...reputation. This is where "word of mouth" (IMHO) becomes of paramount importance. Ask other players where they get their instrument repaired and also ask for their personal, subjective opinion as to how they were treated and how their instrument played after they got it back.
I would never advise just "price shopping" because I still believe the old saying: "you get what you pay for" still rings quite true today..."
Dan,
In NYC prices can/will reflect the cost of keeping the shop (mostly rental costs), which are higher in Manhattan than in the outer boroughs.
I believe that it is impossible to get a true cost of the overhaul over the phone or over internet. Visual inspection of the instrument is required for an accurate assessment.
Unless the phone quote includes fixing unpredictable problems, regardless if the instrument has such problems or not.
Like an "umbrella" quote.
I remember two quotes of $600 and $650 for an overhaul, about 4-5 years ago. The tech who quoted $650 told me, "I don't do re-pads, I do complete overhauls only".
That instrument did not need complete overhaul so eventually I found someone who re-padded it for $250 (if I remember correctly).
To me, $600 for a complete overhaul is not high, if done properly: tone holes leveled and polished, springs balanced, keys opening adjusted, etc.
Many times, after disassembling a clarinet, I would find 2-3-4 lose posts, chipped tone holes, bent keys, etc.- things that are not easily visible even on inspection...
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2024-01-12 02:36
m1864 wrote:
"I believe that it is impossible to get a true cost of the overhaul over the phone or over internet. Visual inspection of the instrument is required for an accurate assessment."
What I wrote about Lisa's Clarinet Shop response above: ""Our overhauls start at $250 for playing condition and increase based on the model of clarinet and what needs to be done." My understanding is that Lisa's overhaul starts at $250 and then goes on up from there after doing a visual inspection.
I did a location check on Roberto's Winds and Lisa's Clarinet Shop. Roberto's is in the heart of NYC and Lisa's shop is located in Downers Grove, IL. Now I think I understand why Roberto's and Lisa's prices are so different.
After reviewing the two different overhaul prices, I believe the price differences accurately reflect the salary differences of the two locations. In other words, IMHO, if a player can afford to live in Manhattan, paying $1000.00 for a clarinet overhaul would probably be looked upon as appropriate.
Post Edited (2024-01-12 02:56)
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Author: m1964
Date: 2024-01-12 06:03
Hi Dan,
After reading your post, I looked up the prices on Lisasclarinetshop.com:
Bb, A or Eb Playing Condition- $295
A play condition includes fixing 3-4 issues which might include:
Replacing up to 6 pads
Replace corks and bumpers if needed
Address frozen rods and screws as needed
Fix broken springs
Joint corks replaced as needed
Tone holes chips repaired.
Bb, A or Eb Overhaul- $750
Our overhaul includes:
Complete cleaning of instrument
All pads replaced-Your choice of skin, cork or synthetic masters series pads
Corks and bumpers replaced as needed
All rods and screws will be tested to ensure free movement
Joint corks replaced as needed
Tone holes chips repaired.
I looked at their website because I did not believe that a reputable shop would do an overhaul for $250. It's not possible to do it right for that money.
I fix instruments as a hobby- my own and my band mates clarinets so I know how much time it may take to bring an instrument to the proper playing level, esp. if there are problems like rusted screws, lose posts, worn out keys and screws- the list can be very long.
However, you are right about people willing to pay Manhattan prices- not only for clarinet repair but for everything else. It's another universe there.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2024-01-12 06:22
m1964,
Thanks for going the extra mile. All I can say is that when I wrote: "How much does it cost to overhaul a LeBlanc Dynamic H clarinet?", an automated response gave me what I wrote above. So much for AI.
Actually, for $295.00, I think Lisa's techs are doing quite a bit. And, the cost is probably so low due to where they are located.
Thanks, again.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2024-01-12 08:33
Dan Shusta wrote:
> Actually, for $295.00, I think Lisa's techs are doing quite a
> bit. And, the cost is probably so low due to where they are
> located.
All I can say is that replacing 6 pads can be much quicker than removing rusted screw requiring cutting the screw out and fitting a replacement post.
Or the opposite- the screw may come out after application of penetrating fluid and waiting 5-10 min., but replacing the pads would need leveling tone holes first...
So, just like you said in your earlier post, "it depends".
The part that many people do not realize is that a student level clarinet like an E11 may require exactly the same amount of work as a Prestige or Tosca.
But it still be an E11 after $795 overhaul.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2024-01-12 09:23
m1964 wrote,
"All I can say is that replacing 6 pads can be much quicker than removing rusted screw requiring cutting the screw out and fitting a replacement post."
I agree, but you also stated that one of the things Lisa's techs do is:
"Address frozen rods and screws as needed."
I'm trying to understand...isn't Lisa's tech doing somewhat what you do?
Don't some "frozen screws" need to be cut off? Or, is she really saying that: "Addressing frozen rods and screws as needed" simply means adding something like Liquid Wrench to loosen them? This part is ambiguous to me.
I also agree that giving a student level, wooden clarinet a $795 overhaul would be a waste of a lot of money because after all the things that would be done to it wouldn't transform it into a professional clarinet.
I don't know about anyone else, but I am sure learning a lot! Thanks to you!
Post Edited (2024-01-12 21:17)
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2024-01-12 18:24
JBWINDS.COM is John Butler. Basic rates on his website. $450. Cork and plating is extra. Not sure if he is sending out for plating anymore.
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2024-01-12 18:34
Why would someone pay $1000 for an overhaul in NYC when you could drive or mail your instrument somewhere else for an overhaul at ~$500? In my experience an overhaul is a forecasted event, not an emergency repair service so it should be easy to plan logistics to get a much better price.
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Author: kilo
Date: 2024-01-12 18:58
SaxQuest, who I've dealt with previously and consider trustworthy, listed a Selmer Model 30 bass on their site, "as is". I had it shipped directly to my repair technician for an overhaul. He charges a standard $749 for a professional bass overhaul. Buffing the keywork was extra.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2024-01-12 19:14
Hunter_100 wrote:
> Why would someone pay $1000 for an overhaul in NYC when you
> could drive or mail your instrument somewhere else for an
> overhaul at ~$500?
Depends on who you are and what you do as a clarinetist. If you're a pro player in NYC, need the instrument back quickly, and know/trust the repairer from prior experience to do a great job who is located conveniently close by, why not?
Karl
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Author: ruben
Date: 2024-01-12 22:00
I would expect manufacturers to do a better and cheaper job of overhauling my instruments. This has, ironically not been the case for me with Buffet, Selmer and long-gone Leblanc here in the Paris area. I know independent repair people that do far better work than the manufacturers at a lower price.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2024-01-13 01:10
>> Our overhauls start at $250 for playing condition and increase based on the model of clarinet and what needs to be done <<
This is a sort of nomenclature issue. From a repair point of view, it is pretty clear that when they say "overhauls" here they really mean "repairs". Overhaul is a tricky term because it doesn't really have a clear definition, which makes sense since two overhauls of two instruments could be significantly difference (in time, price, etc.). In the past (more than a few decades ago) overhauls usually meant re-finishing for lacquered instruments, which is no longer the case.
Playing condition is a pretty common term that is definitely not an overhaul, although an instrument might need an overhaul to be in playing condition... and then a playing condition is an overhaul... you see where this is going... basically the terms are not defined.
Personally I don't use the term playing condition and just describe the actual repairs. I explain that overhauls are different depending on the instrument, but in general I would call it an overhaul if all pads need to be replaced and there is at least some mechanical work to do (in reality it's extremely rare that all pads need to be replaced without a lot of mechanical work i.e. I almost never do what some call a repad, I just don't really see instruments in that condition).
Post Edited (2024-01-14 09:55)
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Author: m1964
Date: 2024-01-13 04:05
clarnibass wrote:
>... Playing condition is a pretty common term that is definitely
> not an overhaul, although an instrument might need an overhaul
> to be in playing condition... and then a playing condition is
> an overhaul... you see where this is going... basically the
> terms are not defined...
That is it- every shop has it's own advertising strategy.
"Address frozen rods and screws as needed" - what is it they do to address it?
Apply some liquid wrench and see if a frozen rod comes out.
What if it does not?
Is cutting the rod, swedging the key and making a new rod included in that $295 price? I highly doubt it.
Regarding Manhattan prices- there are many people in NYC who do not think much whether an overhaul cost is $700 or $1000. That $300 difference is just a pocket change for some people...
However, you can find a very reasonable (and highly skilled) tech in NYC too.
Besides the rental cost to keep the shop, there is the cost of equipment- I was told that original Buffet tone holes cutters cost $2000. Not the cutters from Bohm tools- those are about $700 but they have different profile.
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Author: JoeRomano
Date: 2024-01-13 05:09
I paid 750 each for Bb and A. This is in the SF Bay Area. Mike Manning did a great job for me.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-01-13 12:45
If you where to take ten cars to a mechanic for a " good overhaul", then the cost for each one would be notably different depending on what issues they had individually and the average cost per vehicle would not give you much of a guideline as to what the next car would cost you. Also the quality of the work for which you are paying is not necessarily well related to the price.
As the punter you may be inclined to see an overhaul as " a thing". The mechanic has to deal with it as " a list of things involving variable amounts of time and expense in parts".
So even if you can set a quality standard to " A good overhaul ", you can't reasonably presume a standard cost to that. You can only find a tech you trust to do what needs to be done at an acceptable price.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2024-01-13 16:36
Hi ruben. "I would expect manufacturers to do a better and cheaper job of overhauling my instruments. This has, ironically not been the case".
Probably Buffet's in-house repair people can only bring the clarinet up to "like new Buffet" condition.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2024-01-13 19:43
Philip: Buffet has a good repairman at their exhibition shop in the elegant quartier Saint-Germain in Paris. Your clarinets don't have to go back to the factory to get repaired.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-01-13 21:57
Buffet's repairs department will be basking in the manufacturer's reputation which means they will tend to get the work somewhat irregardless of the actual quality of what they do( I'm NOT stating that this is in fact the case). A good independent tech on the other hand HAS to built their reputation based entirely on the quality of their work ,so the recommendations of trusted colleagues will likely mean more than the name Buffet here.
To return to the general thrust of this thread,
if you go to a tech and try to suggest what you should be paying them to overhaul your instrument, equipped with your "average cost" delusion, they may respond by doing what fits into your price expectation, which is not the same as doing all that should really be done. This tends to be the approach of all those who end up moaning about the service industry , having effectively kneecapped the manner in which quality work can reasonably be expected to happen.
So while I appreciate the sentiment of the topic question, I fear that it's somewhat entertaining an unhelpful line of thinking on the matter.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2024-01-14 10:23
>> Besides the rental cost to keep the shop, there is the cost of equipment- I was told that original Buffet tone holes cutters cost $2000. Not the cutters from Bohm tools- those are about $700 but they have different profile. <<
It's a bit off topic, but FWIW about cost of equipment...
You can do a lot with very minimal tools. I've done my first repad (about 20 years ago) on my home stove, without any other real heat source, and without any damage to the plastic Eb clarinet I was repadding.
OTOH you might need an extremely expensive tool to repair an unusual and rare problem that is not possible to fix without... and of course anything in between.
You'd also need many tools to be a lot more efficient.
About those Buffet tone hole cutters, they are in a way a drop in the water as far as cost, but also not really necessary. Maybe if you only see Buffet clarinets, though even then it's tricky because they changed the tone hole angles and outer countersink diameter along the years (the first tone hole cutter I made was specifically for a Buffet clarinet I was working on, and then it didn't fit the next Buffet clarinet I needed it for). I had custom made cutters with various angles and also make my own (from tool steel).
Most repairers actually use (usually plastic) angled tools with sand paper glued to them. I prefer steel cutters/scrapers, but that's also a good option that is much easier to make.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-01-14 12:44
That's a good observation Clarnibass, because probably 95% of the work techs do can be done with fairly simple tools and the don of ingenuity. Where I live, a tech has recently opened shop but is unpopular with the music community because she lacks the years of experience to inspire confidence, combined with a hefty hourly rate to pay for a crazy investment in specialized tools she's probably never found the need for. Everybody knows they will be paying towards that investment if they go in for a simple re-pad, and if they need some more complex repair work done they will be tending towards taking the extra trouble to find someone with more experience anyway.
Her approach reminds me of a story I once heard in Rockport Main, where a visiting tourist stood amazed, staring at the dense blanket of lobster pots spreading out to sea.
" You must catch a lot of lobsters." he said to a nearby lobsterman.
" No!" Replied the lobsterman...." but when they come we'll be ready for them."
I would venture that the most indispensable tool in a tech's toolset is practical ingenuity and all the other tools follow on as economically practical.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2024-01-16 03:39
This thread has been very helpful for me. For a long time I've been charging $250 for a complete overhaul. That will no longer be the case.
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Author: psmartin
Date: 2024-01-18 18:44
I just had what I consider an overhaul for my pre-R13 to truly get it ready for me to play everyday. I was still playable but it did have a few frozen rods and the keys were rattling a little. I had played on it for over a decade after its last overhaul and then let it set up and the keys were heavily tarnished.
They stripped the keys off cleaned and oiled the wood, can see some of the original guilding on the lower joint and the bell now. They polished the keys, repaired/replaced the frozen rods, swedged the keys, replaced the pads, leveled them, replaced all corks.
It looks and sounds great. Plays more in tune than it ever did before!
This was done by Amro Music in Memphis, TN and was out the door in a weeks time for $470 plus tax.
Paul
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Author: grenadilla428
Date: 2024-01-18 19:39
I'm scheduling mine to be done by in Indianapolis later this spring. The overhaul is going to be about $600.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2024-01-18 20:33
grenadilla428,
Would you mind telling us where you're taking it to? I'd like to add it to the clarinet overhaul directory.
Thanks.
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