 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bill
Date: 2005-03-11 22:01
OK, what's the secret on the very old (pre-"Artist") Penzel-Mueller mouthpieces? Somehow, I missed hearing this one
Bill.
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Author: Bill
Date: 2005-03-11 23:58
So they are Henri Chedeville blanks? My teacher and some other of the on-line mouthpiece cognoscenti have been bidding on and acquiring these things. Gosh, a mouthpiece urban legend I missed out on.
B.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-03-12 00:58
Having 2 old P M [L I,NY] mps, how do we tell if they are Cheds, or were just "made-fors" by someone like Woodwind [NYC]?? The possibilities will motivate me to check into their "playability" versus modern-day goodies. My P M Full Boehm dates back into the 1920's, a good friend loves his 17/6, will ask him about the mp. TKS, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2005-03-12 18:51
If they are marked "Steelite Ebonite" and have three lines around the base, they're probably Chedeville blanks.
Now for the dissenting opinion -
There are LOADS of blanks that were cranked out with the Chedeville template, and it's the finishing steps that make them playable.
You'll probably find P-M mouthpieces of that vintage to be so rough and battered as to be unplayable...
So you STILL will invest $200 for a proper refacing....
Save the money, go visit a LIVING mouthpiece maker/refinisher and you'll have something that fits you!
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2005-03-12 21:22
This can be confusing. Mouthpieces labeled Ch. Chedeville (or Lelandais) were marketed in the US either as finished products or as rod rubber blanks supplied to mouthpiece makers in the US and in France. Henri Chedeville was a cousin of Charles Chedeville. He was a woodwind repairman in Philadelphia, I'm told, in the first third of the 20th century. The mouthpieces that he finished, using his cousin's blanks, are the legendary "Chedevilles" that are so much sought after. Apparently there was a period where he supplied finished mouthpieces to Penzel-Mueller, which were stenciled Penzel-Mueller, not H. Chedeville.
Chedeville/Lelandais still manufactures mouthpieces (and blanks) in France.
David Hite told me he used C/L blanks for many (if not all) of his mouthpieces, until the French company was sold to Glotin (I'm guessing about 20 years ago) and the new owners raised the prices radically.
I suspect that a 1920 P-M mouthpiece is very likely a Henri Chedeville!
What's in a name--I had a new student bring in a Bundy moputhpiece this week that played and sounded just great!
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-03-12 21:51
While we are playing "Name That Mouthpiece", I'd appreciate any thots re: my NEMC [with ?Conn? logo], Steelite Ebonite, France, 1 ring above 3 rings below !!, facing G8, appears virgin ! A good player as I recall. Now with Inc Taxes calc, not pd, perhaps I can check out this one and the older-appearing PM , tomorrow. Fun, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-03-13 20:24
All 3 mps play quite well with a med LaVoz reed and a Gigliotti lig on my Omega Sel.. My choice is the ?newer? P M mp with Penzel above Mueller & Co above N ew York, all in an oval, no other markings. The ?older? PM has it spelled out in a line at the bottom of the mp. Any thots? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Bill
Date: 2005-03-14 20:31
Don - I have a 1-ring-up, 3-rings-down mothpiece that says (only) "G8." That is the ONLY markng on it. It's very nice.
LarryBocaner - thanks for the info. I have an old David Hite mouthpiece that is probably a Ched.
S. Botch - I agree that some of the living masters are as good or better than the legendary equipment. My Greg Smith "Old Ched" (c. 1998) is a winner every time, every reed. But the mystery is fun Plus I was so surprised about this P-M phenomenon! My teacher never said a word to me (competition, I guess). For a time, I was very interested in all things Penzel-Mueller, but after a few P-M mouthpieces and clarinets, I lost my enthusiasm for their stuff. Sad, since I was briefly in touch with two members of the Mueller family. There's an interesting story!
Bill.
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Author: edcabarga
Date: 2007-05-04 03:02
I think Larry Bocaner must be right about the old Penzel Mueller mouthpieces being Chedeville or Henri Chedeville blanks because boy do they have the sound. Why didn't you tell me this earlier, Larry? I have five Penzel Muellers, I'm rich!
My only doubt stems from the fact that the dimensions are different from the 20's and 30's Chedevilles I have seen ( does anybody have any insight into this?). And yes they all seem to need refacing to get them to work right with the modern reeds.
Edward Cabarga
Clarinet, Bass Clarinet
National Symphony Orchestra
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2007-05-04 13:40
Bill,
NEMC - National Educational Music Company i believe that "Conn"ish logo is their logo - see their site nemc.com At one time a mail order company - i bought a few things from them in the early 1980s.
The NEMC is a Woodwind mpc from what i've seen. I nearly bought one off ebay last month except i forgot to bid.
I wrote down the ww mpc facings here last month - going to have to search for it. But I believe the K was for symphony type players,
here:
FWIF, an old woodwind brochure defines this for their resistance curves
C - widely use by dance musicians who double on saxophones
K - used mostly by symphony men
B - developed especially for students
G - most flexible all round facing for dance and symphony players
N - known for its extremely free blowing characteristics
I'm not sure on their "lineage" to Cheds though
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Author: DougR
Date: 2007-05-04 16:18
Ahhh, a Penzel Mueller thread! Possibly someone can comment on THIS guy:
it's a George Jenney signature clarinet mouthpiece, (he was a reed player and band leader in the 30s and 40s, brother of Jack Jenney, who was a trombonist in Goodman's big band in the 30s), and dates from the late 50s. It was bought for me by my then teacher, Norman Katz, a doubler in the DC area back then, who also used it.
The words "Penzel-Mueller" are stamped on a piece of white nylon that's inlaid into the cork-end of the piece, just below the 2 ligature lines, on the top (dorsal?) side. The George Jenney "signature" is stamped just above that.
This is one "bright" mouthpiece--nothing remotely Chedevillian or "covered" about it. Good for a doubler playing jazz or clarinet leads in a section, though.
I guess one question is, who was George Jenney, why did he rate his own mouthpiece, and how did P-M come to manufacture it? It's kind of fun to play on, but for the stuff I do, I prefer my Borbeck.
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Author: Simon Aldrich
Date: 2007-05-04 18:18
>Having 2 old P M [L I,NY] mps, how do we tell if they are Cheds, or were just >"made-fors" by someone like Woodwind [NYC]??
I have heard from numerous refacers and mouthpiece-makers that an indication that a blank is a Chedeville is the "Qualite superieure" stamp that runs lengthwise next to the right side of the table (where "Zinner hand-crafted" is stamped on the Zinner blanks). Some have said that "Qualite superieure" stamp was put on the blanks that were exported by Chedeville to the US.
On some blanks this "Qualite superieure" stamp is all but rubbed-out. I have several blanks and branded mouthpieces (like a Geo. Jenney Penzel-Meuller New York) on which the "Qualite superieure" stamp is evident only by the Q at the beginning and the e at the end.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Simon Aldrich
Clarinet Faculty - McGill University
Principal Clarinet - Orchestre Metropolitain de Montreal
Principal Clarinet - Orchestre de l'Opera de Montreal
Clarinet - Nouvel Ensemble Moderne
Buffet-Crampon Artist/Clinician
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Author: Ed
Date: 2007-05-05 00:12
Many years ago, while I was a student, a teacher of mine had a PM Eb mouthpiece that was superb. At the time, I did not know anything about the markings and such, but it was one great player.
Post Edited (2007-05-05 00:12)
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Author: edcabarga
Date: 2007-05-05 03:49
I think the PM's from the 20's and 30's are pre "Qualite Superieure". The earliest example of that designation I've ever seen is Larry Bocaner's wonderful career Lelandais Bass MP from circa 1940 (it actually says "Superior Quality" in English).
The Penzel Mueller Co. may have buffed out all the markings and then put their own stamp on them. Perhaps, like the Kaspars later on, they didn't want anybody to know they were getting their blanks from France. So the mystery continues...
I have someone's Geo Jenny Penzel on my desk right now and it appears to be a much later model, maybe 1960's or 70's. Nowhere near as good as the old ones.
Edward Cabarga
Clarinet, Bass Clarinet
National Symphony Orchestra
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Author: Bill
Date: 2007-05-05 16:27
Odd to see this old message resurrected. In fact since I asked this question I have obtained Sue R.'s "Hard India Rubber" P-M and it is very likely the best thing I have in my collection. It was redone by Chris Hill. Just, hard to explain, unlike anything else and with excellent intonation on a surprisingly wide variety of clarinets. Nice, focused characteristic. I have another "New York" P-M that I believe is older than the "Hard India Rubber," and this too is just excellent, with a beefy and even tone. It has not been refaced and requires quite a hard reed.
I also like the "Long Island City" P-M's but for entirely different reasons. I do not think they are the equals of these early ones, yet they are fun.
Bill.
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
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Author: Bill
Date: 2007-05-05 17:25
Attachment: penzelz.jpg (100k)
Here are my two older P-Ms.
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
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