 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Larry Liberson
Date: 2002-06-28 16:35
OK, you musicologists and detectives -- here's a project for you!
After a performance last evening of the Brahms Quintet, Op. 115 in which I took part (and, for those who might be interested, we will do it again this evening in Ann Arbor), my friend and colleague Ruth Laredo (yes, that Ruth Laredo!) mentioned that she had either read or heard that Brahms had actually quoted the Mozart Quintet, K. 581 in the Op. 115. She then asked what I knew about that -- but all I could do was look at her like I was a deer in somebody's headlights!
So, after re-checking my sources and scores, etc....well, I have to admit I don't know where it might be, assuming a quote such as this even exists. Obviously, there are many similarities between the two works (structurally, use of the clarinet, etc.)-- but she mentioned a direct quote.
Help?
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Author: Jerry McD
Date: 2002-06-28 17:00
Oh my goodness!
If you're a deer in the headlights....I'm going to be bug-splat! But it's an interesting question and I'm rummaging for my scores and recordings as I type. I'll see what I find (I'm not hopeful of finding anything but you never know).
Jerry McD.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-06-28 18:48
Larry...Mystery solved...
Many musicologists have noticed the distinct similarity between the opening first movement clarinet figure of the Mozart Quintet (inverted chordal arpeggio) with the opening violin theme in the beginning of the first movement (measure 5) of the Brahms Quintet.
Whether it was intentional, subconscious, or pure coincidental is up for debate...GBK
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-06-28 19:02
Larry...One further similarity.
For years, musicologists have often thought (and still do) that the opening 4 note theme (do, re, fa, mi) of Mozart's Jupiter Symphony was intentionally quoted by Brahms in the 4th movement of the Clarinet Quintet by the clarinet in measure 81 (right after the repeat), measure 83, and measure 85. Again, subject to speculation.
However, as we all remember from Music History 101 - the key signatures of the 4 Brahms Symphonies are C major, D major, F major, E minor (do, re, fa, mi).
Coincidence to Mozart's Jupiter Symphony? Probably not...GBK
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2002-06-28 20:41
GBK -
The do-re-fa-mi motive appears everwhere. Peter Schickele rang the changes on it in one of his PDQ Bach pieces -- I think one of the Ill-Tempered Clavier fugues (which everyone should listen to, anyway -- wildly funny, and it shows he hasn't lost his touch).
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Micaela
Date: 2002-06-28 23:12
Also, both have a string introduction and then the clarinet has a measure to itself, beginning with an arpeggio. Both have variations as their last movements.
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Author: rmk
Date: 2002-06-29 05:28
I always thought it was in the second movement. The opening clarinet line (in the Brahms) is a bit similar to the opening notes of the Mozart (in the 1st Violin).
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Author: Larry Liberson
Date: 2002-06-29 15:18
Thanks for all your comments...but....
Please remember that I'm searching for an alleged "quote." Like I said, I (and all of you!) am well aware of the several similarities -- such as the first movement being in sonata-allegro form, the "slow" (second) movement in three, the fact that each has a set of variations, both for clarinet in A, etc. -- but that is not my question or interest.
In answer to what GBK has posted....well, forgive my denseness, but I have absolutely no idea what you mean in your assertion that "Many musicologists have noticed the distinct similarity between the opening first movement clarinet figure of the Mozart Quintet (inverted chordal arpeggio) with the opening violin theme in the beginning of the first movement (measure 5) of the Brahms Quintet." If my score and parts are correct (which they are, of course), the violin is doing nothing melodic in bar 5 of the Brahms first movement. True enough, the clarinet is playing an arpeggiated figure -- but, so what? Different inversion, different rhythmic grouping, etc. Close, but not really -- and again, hardly a quote (whatever that might be!).
I have to agree with Ken about that the do-re-fa-mi motive appears everwhere. After all, we only have twelve pitches with which to work (at least as far as these examples are concerned) in western music (please -- no comments on quarter tone music!).
I am intrigued with rmk's comment, however. My only question is would that be considered -- in musicological circles -- a quote, since it only a fragment of the line in the Mozart (the first three notes as opposed to the first four notes). Actually, to take this suggestion a bit further, you could venture down to measure 29 of the second movement (of the Brahms), starting on the third beat: there, it is obvious that the line of F - D - C natural - B-flat follow the first four notes of the Mozart quintet perfectly; however the phrase doesn't end there (in the Brahms) -- so is this considered a "quote?" Anyway, most of these three-note figures in the Brahms are just that -- three notes, and only three notes.
So did Brahms actually quote the Mozart quintet or is all of this just an intersting coincidence -- and wild goose chase? How much latitude is there in what actually constitutes a "quote?"
Thanks again for your interest.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-06-29 16:49
Larry..As long as musicologists have been disecting compositions and writing their impressions, the comparisons between Brahms and Mozart have been made. (eg: most recently Katalin Fittler - musicologist from Hungary). Therefore if one wants to look for closeness between any two compositions, with a little stretch, a case (albeit a weak one) can probably be made.
Brahms, during his lifetime was more concerned with perfecting the forms already in existence rather than introducing new ones. In an age of Romanticism, he took a stand with the great Classical tradition, and became a major exponent of the trend towards the restoration of Classical restraint, balance and objective writing. Thus many of his stylistic traits had their roots in the preceeding hundred years.
I am sure that as many of us have both played and heard the Mozart and Brahms quintets numerous times we are familiar with practically every note in every part. As for an "exact" (note for note/same key, etc...) quote by Brahms, I've never seen it (or had heard/read of one). The one reference I gave of the arpeggiated figure comparison is fairly well known.
Similarities abound due the the above discussed relationship and love that Brahms had for the Classical tradition. A few of the well known comparisons between the two quintets and other works were mentioned by myself and others.
If you do find the exact quote (and personally, I doubt it exists) please pass it along, as it would be big news to not only the bulletin board readership, but to music historians world wide.
Good Luck...GBK
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Author: David Dow
Date: 2002-07-03 11:07
So typical of musicologists to spend so much time on something so little, about such a great work of art as this. What does it prove? Musicians quote each other all the time, whether unconsciously, or consciously. I think that the whole arguement over the opening arpeggio is dim witted, becuase arpeggiation is a common technique to all composing...therefore, the source of the topic should speak with the source of the statement, and prove once and for all which bar and figure in the work is the MOZART quote.
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Author: David Dow
Date: 2002-07-03 11:11
Moart quotes Handel all the time especially in Symphony 36 and Beethoven quotes Handel in the opening of Consecaration of the House, but I can find no references in Brahms after looking for the Mozart-like figure in the Quintet. One may add though the opening of the slow movement has the autumnal quality of the slow music of the quitet by Mozart. You know A F# (in Brahms), going downward slowly, like the same slow upward intervallic movement at the beginning of the quintet by Mozart....
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2006-05-01 12:00
Larry Liberson wrote:
>> After a performance last evening of the Brahms Quintet, Op. 115 in which I took part (and, for those who might be interested, we will do it again this evening in Ann Arbor), my friend and colleague Ruth Laredo (yes, that Ruth Laredo!) mentioned that she had either read or heard that Brahms had actually quoted the Mozart Quintet, K. 581 in the Op. 115. She then asked what I knew about that -- but all I could do was look at her like I was a deer in somebody's headlights!
>> So, after re-checking my sources and scores, etc....well, I have to admit I don't know where it might be, assuming a quote such as this even exists. Obviously, there are many similarities between the two works (structurally, use of the clarinet, etc.)-- but she mentioned a direct quote.>>
This is an old thread, but I happened on it, and have a suggestion to make that goes a little beyond what was said. It also fits in with an interesting article by Charles Rosen entitled "Brahms: Influence, Plagiarism and Inspiration" (published in his 'Critical Entertainments' (1980)) where, for example, he comments on how Brahms's First Piano Concerto is 'modelled' on Beethoven's Third Piano Concerto, and his Second Piano Concerto on the Emperor Concerto in a quite abstract ways, with no duplication of actual material.
Here is some of what he writes about the last movements of the first pair:
"The closeness of the dependence [of the Brahms on the Beethoven], together with the fact that the two pieces sound so different that even the most cultivated listener is unlikely to be reminded of one by the other, makes this an interesting case.
"The two finales may be described and analyzed to a great extent as if they were the same piece:
"Rondo form. Minor key. 2/4. Allegro (Beethoven); Allegro non troppo (Brahms).
"1st phrase. 8 measures. Solo piano alone. Opening theme.
"2nd phrase. 8 measures. Orchestra repeats the first phrase with pizzicato accompaniment. Solo plays obbligato counterpoint in octaves.
"3rd phrase. Second phrase of theme started by solo alone, orchestra entering in the middle of the phrase. The theme develops a short descending motif repeated several times getting softer (calando, diminuendo) and slower (ritard., poco sostenuto).
"Cadenza (measured in Brahms)--- arpeggiated figuration descending and then ascending, ending with a scale that leads directly into the return of the opening phrase, now played by the piano accompanied by the orchestra. Beethoven's scale ascends and Brahms's descends, but that is not an impressive transformation."
And so on.
Without claiming anything like this degree of dependence, I can point out that one of the most striking compositional aspects of the opening of the Mozart, and one which Brahms would certainly have noticed, is the strange layout of the opening chord -- two distantly spaced thirds, that gravitate inward in contrary motion towards a more conventional and relaxed-sounding chord-spacing. In particular, the violin parts are initially in thirds, and then change to sixths. (I give a rhythmic mini-analysis of these few bars in, yes you've guessed it,
http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/Study/Phrasing.html)
That, of course, is exactly what the Brahms Quintet violins do, alone; and that the clarinet answers with a rising arpeggio in both pieces extends the analogy.
Brahms's 'homage' to Beethoven in the piano concertos, as pointed out by Rosen, is abstract in the same way.
So, as was suggested by GBK, it's likely that what Larry's friend was describing having heard of was not a direct quote, but something like what I've just described. There may be other little instances, too -- I haven't thought about it for some time.
Tony
Post Edited (2006-05-01 14:08)
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-05-01 18:17
Who would have thought that Mozart would have dared steal something from our man Johannes!
(Please know I'm kidding)
-Randy
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2006-05-01 21:26
Cuisleannach wrote:
>> Who would have thought that Mozart would have dared steal something from our man Johannes! (Please know I'm kidding) - Randy>>
What difference could it possibly make that I knew or didn't know?
Tony
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Author: donald
Date: 2006-05-01 22:13
It is common now for modern composers to write pieces that quote well known musical themes in a way that is supposed to be humorous... i seldom find it so but others do apparently, and it would appear they outnumber me.
But every so often i encounter examples of this in historical compositions, and wonder what was really going on. For example, the opening of the Spohr 3rd concerto 2nd mvt reminds me of the 2nd mvt of the Mozart concerto. While i have no way of really knowing (or time/resources for the research involved) i can imagine that Spohr and Hermstedt had heard the Mozart concerto. The reference could have been intended to be humorous or reverential, and perhaps something the audience was not expected to pick up (had they heard the work? where was Spohr 3rd concerto premiered?). In this instance, at any rate, i personally hear the reference/quote as being obvious enough to be "probably deliberate" and intended to be recognised. I find the conjecture interesting, and would love to do the research to find out as much as i could.
I have however sat through lectures (by both a theory prof and an international soloist) that gave intricate analysis of both the Mozart and Brahms quintet slow movements and proved all kinds of things- all of which have completely disapeared from my brain over the years due to the complete irelevance of any of it. The "cleverness" was on a level that i doubt was intended to be shared, and is engaging a completely different part of "the person".
Mr Pay wrote- "what difference would it make that i knew or didn't know", and there are many levels upon which this can be addressed. I am usually inclined to be a bit cynical here- but i have to admit that for me it DOES make a positive impact because it makes music more interesting even if it doesn't really have an effect on how i will actually play. I am however more interested in people than intervals.
thanks for the interesting post
donald
ps- the Mozart Req would certainly be better with Basset horns, but Basset horns would also be better with a smaller orchestra that has some idea how to play softly!
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2006-05-02 00:10
donald wrote:
>>[snip] I have however sat through lectures (by both a theory prof and an international soloist) that gave intricate analysis of both the Mozart and Brahms quintet slow movements and proved all kinds of things- all of which have completely disapeared from my brain over the years due to the complete irelevance of any of it. The "cleverness" was on a level that i doubt was intended to be shared, and is engaging a completely differen part of "the person".>>
But what Brahms did, as clarified by Charles Rosen, is surely a 'playful' relationship with the past, not intended to be 'clever', or exclusive. It underlines that he thought himself a part of a movement that was greater than himself.
>> Mr Pay wrote- "what difference would it make that i knew or didn't know", and there are many levels upon which this can be addressed.>>
I wasn't talking about Brahms there -- I was saying that I would have the same opinion of the man who posted, whether he was kidding or whether he was not kidding.
Unsurprisingly, I'd say.
Tony
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