 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: kurth83
Date: 2025-08-13 04:47
I am a student (doubler), been playing about two years. Able to play 3rd (barely) in our local concert band.
I have an R13, vandoren M13 mpc, rico 3.5 reed (sanded slightly and broken in).
The setup plays perfectly for my aging body, lots of endurance, full range, easy control over the entire range.
The clarion and altissimo registers are great, sound fantastic, I have full control up to an A, and I practice all my scales and arpeggios up to the high A daily.
I am putting lots of air into the horn, everything works better on wind instruments when you blow. Even though the setup is a bit restrictive, I can get lots of air through the horn, or at least I put into it all it will take.
My problem is the chalemeau register sounds a little honky when I blow hard. It is a noticeably less pleasing tone than the better clarinet players in the section when I blow really loud, it's ok at lower volumes. But in a concert band, playing low volume on 3rd means you might as well go home, you aren't contributing anything. And sitting in front of the trumpet section I can't even hear myself unless I am blowing pretty hard.
I don't know what I am doing wrong, why more open tip mpcs don't work for me, or why my tone down low is terrible.
I feel like my embouchure is likely weak (same problem on trumpet). I chose this setup as the stiffest reed I could put on the most friendly mouthpiece that got me the entire range of the instrument and gave me good endurance using a traditional single lip embouchure.
My criteria had me on a 1.5 at first, and gradually worked up to the 3.5 (which works far better). Not having any joy with stiffer reeds yet though. The 3.5 box has a variety of stiffnesses in it, I am using one of the softest ones.
My teacher plays on a 5RV lyre with a 56 rue lepic 3.5+ (heavily sanded), I can't even make a sound down low on that setup, all I get is air. In the really high registers I can make a banshee ashamed, it goes so loud.
Edit: sorry if it sounds like I am complaining, I am really happy with my progress, and truly love the clarinet, don't regret taking it up for a second. Within my limited technique I can make it sing, it's a beautiful melodic instrument, and I admit I use some vibrato. :-)
Aging classical trumpet player learning clarinet as a second.
Post Edited (2025-08-13 05:33)
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Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2025-08-13 05:20
I highly recommend finding Ray Wyant on social media and getting some zoom lessons. He’s really a fantastic person to work with and helps solve so many issues so efficiently.
James Garcia
Bass Clarinet/Clarinet III, Des Moines Symphony Orchestra
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Author: kdk
Date: 2025-08-13 06:15
kurth83 wrote:
> My teacher plays on a 5RV lyre with a 56 rue lepic 3.5+
> (heavily sanded), I can't even make a sound down low on that
> setup, all I get is air. In the really high registers I can
> make a banshee ashamed, it goes so loud.
What does your teacher say about your chalumeau sound? What does he (she?) think you're doing wrong? Do you sound "a little honky" in the chalumeau during your lessons, or only during band rehearsals?
Trying to play loud as an end in itself is usually a waste of energy. "It is a noticeably less pleasing tone than the better clarinet players in the section when I blow really loud, it's ok at lower volumes." There's a big difference between playing "low volume" and playing with a full, controlled, focused sound. Your sound can be full without being "loud." Maybe try to match the "better clarinet players'" volume level, which is probably not forced but not low volume, either. Chances are the "honky" sound when you "blow hard" is caused by either forcing or taking in too much mouthpiece, or a combination of both.
Most players I know who play on an M13 or its equivalent facing use #3.5 or #3.5+ Vandoren reeds or their equivalent. If 3.5 works well for you, there's no need to try to go stiffer. Resistance is different among #3.5 V.12, 56 Rue lepic, V21 and Traditional (thin blank) reeds. One of the four may work better for you than the others without changing strength.
Your teacher should be able to help you sort this out.
Karl
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2025-08-13 06:15
Any chance you have a leaking pad or something out of adjustment?
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2025-08-13 06:24
For me it is the balance between the amount of air you use on a given note at a given volume vs the amount of control you use with your embouchure. I bet when you get the GOOD sound in the chalameau if you loosened up your embouchure, it would start to sound honkier. So you take what you learn from that and modify your louder playing.
………..Paul Aviles
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Author: kurth83
Date: 2025-08-13 06:53
Fuzzy, it's new, and professionally setup, and I know how to fix basic leaky pad issues, so pretty sure it's not that.
Paul, you might be on to something, I recall as I get tired it get's honkier. I am still learning when it's time to tighten up and when it's time to loosen up. Clarinet has very different rules than trumpet there.
To experiment I did what you said, I tightened up down low, vs loosening up and the tone was very different, the too loose tone was the bad tone I was complaining about. So I think you nailed it. And kdk you got it right too. I was striving for more volume at the expense of tone.
I have this feeling that if I get stronger I could play a more open tip mpc and get more volume and it would still sound good. But so far I don't have the strength to make them work without using a softer reed which defeats the purpose entirely.
And KDK, nice to know I am about right for reed stiffness, it is a well working setup. I have flexibility and control across the entire range which is really enjoyable to play. I guess I'll have to be content with my volume for now.
So thanks guys. That gets me to sounding decent on the M13 at least.
Aging classical trumpet player learning clarinet as a second.
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Author: David Eichler
Date: 2025-08-14 00:41
I think a Rico 3.5 reed is way too soft for an M13 mouthpiece, and is not that great a reed for Classical playing (except as a beginner's reed). I think an M13 needs at least something like a Vandoren 3.5 reed. If you can't get there right away, start with Vandoren #3 and work your way up gradually. If you have some sort of physical limitation that prevents you from playing this kind of set up, I suggest trying a different kind of mouthpiece that is designed to accommodate slightly softer reeds, like a 5RV (not Lyre), B40, B45, B46, etc.
At various times, I have gone through the process of resisting going to a more resistant set up, even though I thought that the result would ultimately be better for what I need, and eventually worked my way into it. It is like any sort of physical activity that requires conditioning, you have to work your way up to greater resistance gradually.
I am not saying that greater resistance is always the way to go, but in your case I think you are clearly using a set up with too little resistance. A close-tip, long-facing mouthpiece like an M13 just needs heavier reeds to work well. And a Rico 3.5 is like a Vandoren 2.5.
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Author: kurth83
Date: 2025-08-14 05:25
Thanks David, that kinda confirmed what I thought, that I am a bit weak and need a stiffer reed.
Unfortunately softer reed friendly mouthpieces don't make a reed feel softer, as the wider tip more than compensates and makes (at least to me) the reed feel far stiffer.
I have a box of 56 vandoren 3's and pulled one out today, it is obviously way too soft for me, which is quite a relief maybe I'm not as weak as I thought. It sure does make a lot of tone though, way more than the Rico's ever did, so I think you nailed it to a point. One of those in adequate stiffness would greatly increase my tonal volume from what I can tell.
I think the bottom line is I need to switch to good reeds. I didn't know how much difference it could make. So my Vandoren reed pilgrimage is about to begin.
My teacher is a symphony player and loves the 56's. For her the 3.5+ are barely stiff enough on a 5RV lyre, so I'll start with those, I've ordered some 3.5 and 3.5+ 56's.
Thanks again.
Aging classical trumpet player learning clarinet as a second.
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Author: David Eichler
Date: 2025-08-16 05:01
Mouthpieces that work with softer reeds aren't necessarily more open. They might have a shorter facing, a more resistant facing curve, different internal design, or some combination of all these, that enable them to balance with somewhat softer reeds. For example, the standard 5RV (not Lyre) is a medium-close facing with a medium-short lay, and it may work well with medium-strength reeds like a Vandoren 3. The resistance and tonal characteristics of the instrument also play a role.
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Author: eac
Date: 2025-08-20 23:35
With all due respect, I would suggest that playing at a low volume as a third clarinet in a concert band is not worthless. Has the conductor requested more volume from the third clarinets? Blend and balance are the goal not who can play the loudest. Concert band is not a volume contest between the clarinets and trumpets. My conductor states that each of us should sound to ourselves about 45% as loud as the person next to us. Work on tone at a lower volume and then explore how to maintain that good tone with volume increases. Try producing a good tone, then find what makes it worse and return to the good sound. What produces a good sound in a lower register will not necessarily produce the best sound in a higher register. Tone should be a priority over volume.
Liz Leckey
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Author: kurth83
Date: 2025-08-21 05:31
Yeah sorry about that, I was venting. I am happy to play 3rd at all actually.
And that is the lesson here from this thread too, tone over volume.
I don't understand the 45% part, maybe explains why I was feeling frustrated.
Does the clarinet player sitting next to you actually sound louder than you do as a general rule if everyone is playing the same volume? That would explain a lot of why I felt my contribution was lacking, I was trying to match their volume or exceed it, which is what you would do on trumpet. Maybe I'm not as volume challenged as I thought I was.
That's also kind of scary, does that mean they can hear my wrong notes better than I can? Ouch! :-)
Aging classical trumpet player learning clarinet as a second.
Post Edited (2025-08-21 06:25)
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Author: eac
Date: 2025-08-22 02:17
I don't think the percentage matters as much as the concept of blending with the section. No one player should really stand or sound out with the exception of one who is playing a "solo" or exposed piece. You will not hear the total sound like the conductor or audience. And you certainly don't want to stand out with a poor sound. Ask your conductor for his/her input.
I always hear my wrong notes more than I think the person next to me can. Just my opinion.
Liz Leckey
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Author: graham
Date: 2025-08-22 17:23
As KDK asked, what view has your teacher taken of the issue? You should also record yourself to hear what the microphone is hearing. Do you have any age-related hearing issues (these might affect your perception)?
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