 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: RBlack
Date: 2025-01-04 07:25
This is something I’ve been pondering about for a while now and deciding how to put into words.
Picture the average clarinet purchasing scenario: the player goes to their local music store, is brought a handful of instruments from the display case, and tries them out in a stuffy little practice room. They go through some manner of processes to determine which instrument they like best, and then after some financial trauma, they walk away with their shiny new instrument! All seems reasonable, right?
My concern comes in that the player can only evaluate instruments in their current state. For example maybe they chose not to buy a certain instrument because the sliver B/F# was a bit too stuffy? Or maybe long C and B don’t speak easily? When presented with two otherwise identical instruments, one with these problems and one without, I believe the player is prone to just pick the less-problem instrument as better. However, perhaps with a good setup, those issues could be eliminated and the “worse” instrument may in fact have better intonation/other characteristics and have been a better choice!
I have to qualify that the lack of setup I’m talking about, as it applies to clarinets, are not necessarily major issues that an average player can easily identify and acknowledge. Just minor nitpicks that affect one’s sub-conscious judgement of an instrument.
As an aside, because they are a lot more complex and sensitive, I believe my concerns to be even more applicable in terms of bass clarinets, saxes, flutes, etc.
Of course, if the player can identify specific problems, AND there is a competent tech on site that can fix it for you, then this is not really any problem. But I think for the average person who is under the stress of spending money on a new instrument, this is not necessarily a reasonable expectation.
This has been spurred on by noting of all the instruments I have tested at stores recently, not a single one (new or used) has been set up to an appropriate standard to be able to evaluate the instrument on its core merit.
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2025-01-04 10:32
It was a long time ago when I last enjoyed play-testing clarinets. I remember going to Anaheim Band Instruments and playing the R13, Festival, Howarth, Concerto, and probably a Yamaha CX and checking them all out.
This was over 25 years ago. I only played one model of each clarinet, not multiples. Not sure if they had multiples of each one in stock? I doubt I would've even considered that idea back then.
I remember thinking that I wanted the clarinet to easily respond to my fingering as well as easily produce the tone quality I wanted. In short, it had to look good, feel good, and sound good.
Each had their own qualities, but they all worked. They had their own in-house repair facilities. If I had an issue with an instrument, I remember bringing it up once and they put it right to the repair department for adjustment.
I didn't buy anything from that store at that time, but it was always fun 'shopping'.
Having an incomplete setup (on purpose or by design) could be a way to 'steer' the sale to the instrument that nets the highest profit/commission to the salesperson?
Having non-working inventory is a rather expensive way to steer the sale with shelf space and maintaining that inventory just to sell your favorite one and have the image of impariality of having a varied (but non-playable) inventory?
(I'm in financial services and I can think of various ways that sales can be 'steered' unethically to manipulate for the sale that the salesperson wants rather than providing a true service and helping the customer to buy what they really actually need and want.)
Getting back into playing after 20 years.
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Vandoren M15 Profile 88 (non-13) mouthpiece
Vandoren Optimum Silver ligature (plate 1)
Vandoren blue-box #3.5 reeds
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2025-01-04 20:24
If you're serious about a purchase then it probably won't be your 'local store'. The destination needs to have a first class workshop with a technician you've maybe worked with successfully before or who comes recommended by a few serious professionals.
I would take the opposite view to trying lots of different models - instead I would ideally focus on one or two and try samples.
Well, that's what you used to be able to do but I think times have changed and it's one of those issues that steers me away from looking seriously at new instruments.
I wouldn't be looking at any instruments that tI know are not played by a good number of professional players so I'm afraid the likes of Ridenour or Backun wouldn't be in the running. Few players in the UK play the latter.
That would leave me, in the UK, with Buffet, Selmer, Yamaha and Peter Eaton. Last time I tried clarinets I was less than happy with the latest Buffet top models but examples of my own clarinet, the R13 Prestige still came out well. At this stage, I'm no great fan of the extra low F key due to the placement of keys for the little finger. I liked the Yamaha Artist as well so that might be in the frame. Selmer still come highly recommended by some colleagues so I might have to give one of those a try.
Oops, I've chosen 3 but I'm sure my technician would have a view that might reduce me to 2 serious contenders. I would not be happy to accept the trial of just one sample of each and once I'd worked through several I would expect to be able to have my chosen pair 'on approval' for at least 7 days.
I would never complete the deal on the day as many amateurs seem happy to do.
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Author: gwie
Date: 2025-01-04 20:38
I used to do the whole grind of play-testing dozens and dozens of clarinets at a time, trying to find good ones.
Nowadays, I'd much prefer to sample a few perfectly-setup ones from the Yamaha Atelier or Lohff and Pfeiffer (or similar) and call it a day. I dig their perspective that "excellent instruments are not found but MADE."
As I get older, I want to spend time playing and enjoying music, and not having to perform quality control at the point of sale.!
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Author: RBlack
Date: 2025-01-04 21:59
To be fair, I suspect the type of person to be reading/writing on this forum is probably NOT the average amateur that I have concerns about in my post.
Also the average amateur is not likely to be taking a destination trip to a clarinet specialist shop. So this is kind of just a theoretical question in the end.
I am 100% certain that there is no malice or subterfuge in the poorly setup trial model instruments. I am a technician myself, and I know that the reason is simply that they don’t have time/money to be setting up instruments “just because” and have the philosophy of “if the customer has a concern, THEN we will address it.”
The problem comes when the customer can’t tell it’s not playing at full potential because of setup vs nature, or in the case of many shops they are trying instrument outside of the repair tech’s work hours.
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2025-01-04 23:31
RBlack wrote:
> To be fair, I suspect the type of person to be reading/writing
> on this forum is probably NOT the average amateur that I have
> concerns about in my post.
> Also the average amateur is not likely to be taking a
> destination trip to a clarinet specialist shop. So this is kind
> of just a theoretical question in the end.
>
> I am 100% certain that there is no malice or subterfuge in the
> poorly setup trial model instruments. I am a technician myself,
> and I know that the reason is simply that they don’t have
> time/money to be setting up instruments “just because” and
> have the philosophy of “if the customer has a concern, THEN
> we will address it.”
> The problem comes when the customer can’t tell it’s not
> playing at full potential because of setup vs nature, or in the
> case of many shops they are trying instrument outside of the
> repair tech’s work hours.
Spot on with all this. Having coached amateur adult players on day courses it's been fascinating to hear their journeys towards a well set-up, decent instrument, not to mention the issues with barrels, mouthpieces and reeds.
In so many cases and for whatever reason they are mostly unaware of the basic rules behind buying an instrument and then ensuring it is serviced by the right person. As they are not experienced enough to realise their instrument is not working properly it has sometimes been very emotional when such a person is set on the right course and discovers just how well they could play if only the equipment had been working properly.
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2025-01-05 00:00
RBlack wrote:
> To be fair, I suspect the type of person to be reading/writing
> on this forum is probably NOT the average amateur that I have
> concerns about in my post.
> Also the average amateur is not likely to be taking a
> destination trip to a clarinet specialist shop. So this is kind
> of just a theoretical question in the end.
>
> I am 100% certain that there is no malice or subterfuge in the
> poorly setup trial model instruments. I am a technician myself,
> and I know that the reason is simply that they don’t have
> time/money to be setting up instruments “just because” and
> have the philosophy of “if the customer has a concern, THEN
> we will address it.”
> The problem comes when the customer can’t tell it’s not
> playing at full potential because of setup vs nature, or in the
> case of many shops they are trying instrument outside of the
> repair tech’s work hours.
I agree that you're addressing a concern for most students rather than those that frequent this board.
I'd also have to believe that anyone trying out instruments like this probably has some experience in playing the instrument and may have some ideas of problem identification.
The younger they are, the less that may be true.
That's the value of a good local music store as opposed to online instrument trials (which seem to be drying up these days, at least in Southern California).
At least at the store, they can ask you how well you liked it and you can give immediate input/feedback.
Online purchases... that's more difficult (especially if you're coming back into playing and completely out of practice like I was) and it's not always easy to tell if it's the player or the instrument.
Getting back into playing after 20 years.
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Vandoren M15 Profile 88 (non-13) mouthpiece
Vandoren Optimum Silver ligature (plate 1)
Vandoren blue-box #3.5 reeds
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Author: kdk
Date: 2025-01-05 04:16
symphony1010 wrote:
> That would leave me, in the UK, with Buffet, Selmer, Yamaha and
> Peter Eaton. <snip> I liked the Yamaha Artist as well
> so that might be in the frame. Selmer still come highly
> recommended by some colleagues so I might have to give one of
> those a try.
>
I'm very wary of sidetracking this thread, but I'm curious. There's a groundswell of interest, at least in Philadelphia and probably New York surrounding Riccardo Morales's embrace here of Uebel clarinets as his current favorite. Does Uebel figure in the constellation of popular clarinets in Great Britain or in Europe?
Karl
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2025-01-06 03:11
Hi likely I will say some things we already know.
As noted workshops generally do the work once a horn sells or to sell it.
The quality of what comes into the workshop generally is not great.
So I am working in a workshop, and the shop will give me a great price on a bass clarinet.
They have six new prestiges in stock. I play them, all play like garbage leaking like sieves and varying in tuning and response etc.
I decided to choose the one that had the best tuning, it centered the best across registers and octaves etc. Given how they played.
As we know clarinets the bells and barrels of the same brand and model can vary the tone and response dramatically, so this was a lower priority given the state of the horns.
I felt at the time that this was the only way I could complete this process as they all played so badly, the one I bought was probably the worst player. I swapped the bells and necks and now use an Icon neck.
I then gave it to the other repairer to set up with the intention of me then re-working it again to pick up what he missed. He used to do the work for the local opera orchestra.
I spent half a day+ for 18 months putting the keys in the right place and moving it forward and then had to go over the horn for a long while to get it to seal properly.
All of this would be beyond an average punter/cost and quite a concern for the quality of horn.
My guess would be that even after the average person goes through the set-up process they still may not have the ideal product.
So I guess we all have varying processes. In the circumstance I prioritised tuning. I can do tuning work but did not want to have to work on a bass as they are so much work. Likely I would have still had to do similar amounts of set-up work anyway.
One of the others was sold to another well-known professional with her brother who teaches at one of the universities helping her, I felt this horn was out of tune and rejected it.
I am told by her sister she has now sold the horn because she did not like the tuning.
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Author: David Eichler
Date: 2025-01-06 05:10
This thread might be a good opportunity to cite the dealers who provide some level of reassurance that the instruments they sell are well set up before tryout, with special emphasis on those dealers who do artist set ups for clarinets they sell, like the Clarinet Center.
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2025-01-06 09:20
David Eichler wrote:
> This thread might be a good opportunity to cite the dealers who
> provide some level of reassurance that the instruments they
> sell are well set up before tryout, with special emphasis on
> those dealers who do artist set ups for clarinets they sell,
> like the Clarinet Center.
I don't know of Uebels being used professionally in the UK but they are certainly available. If quality control at Buffet is as bad as the next post states then they might be in the ascendant if they're well set up!
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Author: David Eichler
Date: 2025-01-06 09:49
symphony1010, by dealers, I mean retailers, not the manufacturers, ones that take what they get from the manufactures and have the means, at the very least, to correct errors in the basic setup, and at best to do an artist-quality setup.
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