 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Verdi
Date: 2024-12-30 13:26
Hello Clarinet People, happy New Year.
I have recently bought a big box full of old clarinets, clarinet repair tools and a huge amount of pads. Among these was a 1921 Buffet Crampon (photos attached) in excellent condition. I believe 1921 is correct as the serial number is 1858, and the E/B and F#/C# keys on left and top throat notes share one single post. Also, on the back of the bell there is a handwritten engraving saying “France 1921”, although it could have been written at any point. It comes with two barrels of different lengths, one unmarked. The pads were obviously newer than the clarinets, and after replacing some damaged ones the instrument seals very tightly top to bottom.
I am kindly seeking help with the following:
1- what key is this clarinet? The body without barrel and bell is about 22mm longer than a modern Bb body.
2- the chalumeau register plays like a modern Bb (although the lowest notes are slightly out of tune), but the clarion register is one semitone flat (the middle B is the same as the throat Bb)
This last point is a mystery to me, it shows the same pattern with both barrels and I have no idea how it came about nor how to fix it.
Any knowledge, ideas, help identifying the instrument and suggestions are most welcome.
Thanks in advance and happy new year again.
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2024-12-30 17:46
This is definitely an A clarinet based on the spacing of the right hand ring key. That barrel however is not original to the horn which may be causing the issue. Buffet A clarinets from this era have a somewhat larger bore than modern clarinets (generally around 14.8mm-14.9mm) and I often find they need a 67mm or even a 68mm barrel to play in tune. Unfortunately finding a barrel is hard as modern barrels have both a socket that is too small and a bore that is not well suited to these larger bore instruments. I ended up 3D printing a barrel last time I had one of these in my shop with great results. With the right setup they can actually have decent intonation with a modern mouthpiece, unlike their larger bore Bb counterparts.
-JDbassplayer
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Author: Verdi
Date: 2024-12-31 05:45
Thanks for your insight. It also comes with an unbranded 68mm barrel that fits nicely, but doesn’t solve the problem. However, since my last post I measured the two sections separately. The lower joint is 22mm longer than a standard Bb, but the upper joint is the same length as that of a Bb. I am not familiar with the supposed length of an A clarinet, but this tells me that probably this instrument is a mix of an A and a Bb, hence the low and high register discordance. The two sections fit perfectly though, markings and grain are consistent, and the link works normally.
Are the upper joints of A and Bb clarinets the same length?
Your knowledge and insight is much appreciated. Many thanks
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2024-12-31 06:23
Hi Verdi, I have tried a goodly number of barrels with my equivalent. B&H imperial or Emperor barrels work very well. Mine has a 67mm original Buffet Barrell, as I have previously mentioned on another thread. mine was sharp around the throat notes so a 68mm may work. Feel free to let me know if you need any further info. I get the distinct impression that the old mouthpiece internal volume was greater than currently occurs. Happy to provide dimensions if you need.
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Author: Verdi
Date: 2024-12-31 08:25
Thanks Crazyclari. I have tried all the barrels at my disposal that fit, with the same results (high register one semitones flat, or low register one semitone sharp, can’t figure out).
What is your take on the upper joint being the same length as a Bb and the lower joint being 22mm longer than a Bb? Is it normal for and A horn or do I have a Frankenstein clarinet?
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2024-12-31 10:29
The Evette barrel is definitely not original. The unmarked barrel could be original but who knows.
I've seen a bunch of clarinets from that time but never measured their lengths and my memory is terrible, so can't say anything specific. Generally A clarinets of similar models have a longer upper section than Bb clarinets by a very noticeable degree.
Shortening an upper section from the top by a large amount is possible... as long as there's still enough space for the register tube... but then the barrel would be much longer. Shortening it from the bottom is a problem because of the C#/G# tone hole.
Sounds like you have a bunch of other clarinets. Put the sections against sections from other clarinets that are known Bb or A. Align various tone holes and compare the others. Different models would vary but usually significantly less than Bb vs. A.
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Author: Verdi
Date: 2024-12-31 15:28
Thanks Clarinibass, much appreciated. Just measured against Bb clarinets, upper section is same length as a Bb, but lower section is considerably longer. I gather the two sections come from different clarinets, although they fit perfectly. If that is the case there may not be much I can do to make it work
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Author: graham
Date: 2024-12-31 16:18
I don’t get why the lower register is normal (apart from slightly low notes at the very bottom). It seems clear that an A bottom joint is attached to a Bflat top joint. That should flatten all the chalumeau notes in the lower joint. Why would the overblown 12th be an 11th? It doesn’t seem to make sense.
But I would expect an A lower joint to fit the corresponding tenon of the Bflat upper joint. No reason these should be of different size.
Looks like the screw on the throat notes has been added at some point.
graham
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Author: m1964
Date: 2024-12-31 20:40
Is there a serial number on both joints?
If yes, is it the same?
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Author: Verdi
Date: 2024-12-31 21:00
Thanks Graham. Yes the instrument behaves mysteriously. The chalumeau register is in Bb. Low E and F are slightly off but can be managed with embochure. But the middle B equals the throat Bb, and the entire clarion register is one semitone flat. It is unusually easy to bend the notes up to three semitones, so the right pitch can be achieved, but it’s obviously impractical.
It’s a real shame as I have a small collection of buffet and I was excited as this is the oldest and in excellent condition. I wonder how hard it may be to source period correct missing parts to complete an A and a Bb Buffet horns. I guess Best shot is the US, I live in Australia and the market here is very limited.
I read that in that period buffets didn’t have the throat note adjusting screw, so the key may have been changed. But the shared single post seems to be correct
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Author: Verdi
Date: 2024-12-31 21:07
Hi, no serial number only on bottom joint. If the top joint had a different serial number it would make the situation clear, but the lack of number leaves doubts, as tenon, link and grain seem to be a perfect match
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Author: graham
Date: 2024-12-31 21:58
Thanks Verdi. But I don’t think it’s a mismatch of A and B flat sections. The chalumeau notes would not sound up to pitch in that case. It’s a mystery but that’s not the reason (though the gap between the top pad of the lower section and the next finger hole is very wide for a Bflat).
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2024-12-31 23:51
symphony1010 - You've just replied to ClarinetGod in the wrong thread.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2025-01-01 04:09
Verdi wrote:
"...no serial number only on bottom joint. If the top joint had a different serial number it would make the situation clear, but the lack of number leaves doubts, as tenon, link and grain seem to be a perfect match"
I just looked at few early Buffets on eBay and it seems that Buffet had a s/n stamped on the lower joint only, at least in the beginning of the 20s century.
In any case, you can still have this one in your collection- it does not have to be perfectly playable.
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2025-01-01 09:39
Hi, I just tried playing with the Bb top joint and A lower joint as anticipated the pitch drops away in both registers in the right hand, which is obviously different to what you describe.
If you want to compare horns I am in Australia as well. Feel free to email.
It is a mystery and could not be described definitively at the moment. I do not believe a misplaced register key would have such an effect across the entire upper register. Who knows?
BTW low E and F are commonly flat on most clarinet, so no surprise there.
Re: parts I do not think it is likely. I have picked up older barrels for mine, but they were all R13 or the series before and other brands. That is why I went to the B&H barrels as they played very well in tune.
Re: A and Bb joints likely due to cost and availability you would be better off looking at other complete horns.
I bought a Leblanc L7 and two new replacement joints and replated and transfered over the parts. Even though I did the work myself this was a cost prohibitive exercise. Luckily it turned out to be a cracker of a horn, luckily......
Obviously lots of personal choices...
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2025-01-01 09:53
The only other thing I can think of is contact Stephen Fox, he's a wizard😀
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Author: Verdi
Date: 2025-01-01 13:39
Thanks Graham. This tuning issue certainly baffles me. I can’t see a way to fix it. The lower section is definitely too long for a Bb, but the upper section is not
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Author: Verdi
Date: 2025-01-01 13:54
Thanks m1964. I certainly can keep it, but I don’t like the idea of not being able to play it. When it came out of the factory over 100 years ago it surely played beautifully, can’t fathom why it is now so out of tune.
Also, the left pinky C# tone hole is not tapered. I had to sand a bit off the body to create a little flat area so that the pad would sits properly. I don’t know if it’s bad practice, but at least it’s sealing now
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Author: Verdi
Date: 2025-01-01 14:04
Thanks Crazyclari, much appreciated. Where are you based? I’m in Melbourne.
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2025-01-02 01:23
In Melbourne as well. Not overly relevant. Buffet put out a basset horn in the 90s which was renowned for it's. Funky tuning. Have a look on Stephens site😀
If you want feel free to email me, if you want to catch up.
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