 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2024-12-30 02:54
Besides German style bass clarinet writing which is for most part bass clef Bb (or bass clef A), what other instruments use bass clef Bb?
I was talking to a trombonist today who plays both brass band and big band, so they're well versed in playing Bb treble clef (or Bb basso which is essentially tenor clef) and Concert Pitch bass clef and the subject of bass clef Bb parts in concert band arrangements cropped up as to me it seemed a waste of money having extra parts in bass clef when all that is needed is a BBb bass part in treble clef for brass band BBb tuba players who can't read bass clef.
Neither of us could see any benefit of bass clef Bb parts given most wind instruments will read treble clef and the various transpositions (with EEb treble clef essentially being Concert Pitch bass clef), or concert pitch bass clef which bassoons, trombones, euphoniums, tubas (both EEb and BBb) and string bass normally play from.
I did at one time have a tuba player scoff at me when I asked for a treble clef BBb tuba part when I was playing bass sax - his smartarse quip was "What? You don't read bass clef?" I DO read bass clef - only saxes are ALL treble clef instruments regardless of size. I wouldn't know how to apply bass clef to sax in any context, even though I can read off a Concert Pitch bass clef part on bari sax as the notes are all pretty much in the same place, likewise playing tenor sax (or bass clarinet) reading from a tenor clef part. If I was to play contrabassoon, then I'd naturally ask for a string bass part which is Concert Pitch bass clef and sounds an 8ve lower than written.
I can't think of a single instrument besides German bass clarinet that uses Bb bass clef writing. I doubt for a moment anyone has built bassoons or contrabassoons in Bb which would naturally read from such parts, but not even (BBb contrabass) sarrusophones read from bass clef parts from what I gather as they're also a family of treble clef instruments like saxes.
Do any Bb bass clef instruments even exist?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris_C ★2017
Date: 2024-12-30 03:23
Sets of band music from Dutch publishers often contain Bb bass clef parts - I think it's common in Belgium and Netherlands for tubas, trombones, euphoniums etc to use them. I think it's the "Fanfare band" community.
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Author: Natam17
Date: 2024-12-31 00:17
I don’t think I fully understand what you meant by not knowing how to apply bass clef to sax in any context. Is it different from reading bass clef with a bass clarinet?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2024-12-31 00:43
Saxes (of all sizes) are treated as treble clef instruments, just as flutes and oboes of all sizes are.
If I was given a bass clef part in Bb for bass sax, then I wouldn't know where to start as would anyone else who has only ever encountered treble clef parts transposed accordingly, or sight transposed bassoon or trombone parts on bari where the notes are in the same place (while swapping the clef and adding 3 sharps/subtracting 3 flats from the key signature).
I'm not even sure why German bass clarinet writing is usually in bass clef (also used by some French and Belgian composers or their publishers), but saxes are always treated as treble clef instruments. If I was handed a bari part in bass clef Eb or bass sax part in bass clef Bb, I'd hand it back and tell them to go away and rewrite it properly.
And with bass clarinet parts in bass clef, I usually end up rewriting them which saves a lot of grief, especially when it goes into or above the stave and also when it goes into treble clef where it's played an 8ve higher than written (to still sound a whole tone below what's written in the case of your typical Bb basses).
If you've learnt something in one way for the majority of your life, then you're not going to find a challenge like this a simple thing to adopt overnight when it's for maybe just the one occasion. Or to sum it up - I'm too old for this s#!t.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Kiela
Date: 2024-12-31 09:26
I've been told several times before that I absolutely need to learn Bb bass clef for bass clarinet. Problem is, I already learned how to read concert pitch bass clef on bass clarinet. Having to juggle both messed with my sight reading too much that I gave up and stuck to concert pitch.
I find this a much more useful skill to have and arguably easier to learn, just take the tenor clef substitution and transpose down a fifth. Now just about any written music out there is accessible. Useful for covering bassoon parts on the fly, and you can also use string bass or tuba parts for contrabass clarinet.
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Author: graham
Date: 2024-12-31 16:27
Bass clef is very useful for lower register range on bass parts down to C. But I get the point about the other end of the range. I prefer parts which choose a clef and stick to it, but things are what they are.
The thing that makes my blood boil is bass parts in A, newly printed, by lazy and anal publishers which could so easily produce a Bflat part but can’t be bothered to do so.
graham
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Author: JTJC
Date: 2024-12-31 20:02
I think we need to be careful what we wish for from publishers. A few years ago, I read that a major publisher was going to transpose C Clarinet parts for Bb when revising its orchestral works . That would be a travesty. Parts for bass clarinet in A seem to be the bane of bass players lives, but they largely get by using parts that have already been transposed, for the major works at least. If you're regularly doing less we'll known works, then I expect it's a pain.
I always used to transpose C clarinet parts, and have no problem doing. Now I generally avoid it, and use the 'proper' instrument. Not an option for most bass-in-A parts, so transposition remains a necessary skill, along with parts in bass clef etc.
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Author: graham
Date: 2024-12-31 22:07
I appreciate the C clarinet point, and I prefer to use my C clarinet in many cases, so I wouldn’t blame publishers for not giving a transposed part (with the exception of Brahms 4th where the C clarinet part is likely caused by forgetting to produce a part in A). But the bass clarinet position is different. They aren’t a thing at all. The few bass instruments in A have been made only because of the existence of parts, and the idea of carrying two basses and swapping them around like a normal pair is pretty senseless. I would extend the same principle to D clarinet parts (to go into Eflat). Or print one in the original key and another in the key which 99% of players will use.
Yes, there’s stuff online, eg La Valse, but the print size is worse than the published part in A… Perhaps something for a publisher’s new year resolution, but they probably can’t be bothered.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2024-12-31 23:40
I assumed the clarinet parts for Smetana's 'Vltava' were for C, Bb and A clarinet as they are in the score (Breitkopf&Härtel), but it turns out the publication one of the local orchestras hired has it just for Bb and A. Similarly with Beethoven's Leonore Overture No.3 where one of the published parts are for Bb clarinet instead of C as they are in the score (again Breitkopf&Härtel).
While the published parts for some Elgar works are scored for bass clarinet in A, at least they're written in treble clef - although it's still not much fun transposing everything down a semitone when playing on a regular Bb bass. I remember back in my A Level days trying to understand what was going on with the bass clarinet parts in Wagner's Tristan and Isolde prelude which were in bass clef, then it stated in the accompanying notes in a separate book, that's how Germans did it. And that was in the final days when Selmer were still making bass clarinets in A.
It's not just Germans who write bass clarinet parts in bass clef Bb (or A) as Franck, Poulenc, Dukas and many other non-Germans did that too (or their publishers did).
I haven't checked to see if ophicleide parts are in Concert Pitch bass clef or Bb bass clef - I'm assuming they're Concert Pitch.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: kilo
Date: 2025-01-01 22:41
Both Ed Palanker and Michael Lowenstern recommend learning bass clef when playing solo compositions in concert bass clef rather than transcribing them, specifically the Bach Cello Suites. This is different from the Bb bass clef situations that Chris P. is discussing but some familiarity with the F clef is a good skill to have in your musical tool kit.
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