 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bsharp
Date: 2024-12-10 18:50
Suddenly, my year-old R13 A clarinet has developed a problem. Playing starts off well, but after several minutes random notes will not sound or only produce a feeble squawk. It manifests itself often first on open notes like g4 or c6. Then it can correct itself for a few minutes but then the problem continues even on other notes like d4.
I took the instrument to my tech, and he adjusted a pad not seating well, and adjusted the vertical nylon screw pushing down on the a3 key. His work seemed to fix it, but when I returned home, the problem persists. Tech did not see any cracks.
I have been playing clarinet for over 50 years and am a decent player - playing chamber music in public performances. This persistent ‘random’ problem has never happened to me before. Last bit of info: I broke the clarinet in properly over its first year. All was fine. But I have not played on it for a couple of months. It was when I started playing on it again that this happened (although the first day’s practice on it was perfect).
Any experience with or thoughts on this type of problem?
Stephen Schiffman
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2024-12-10 20:31
* I'd have someone reasonably proficient at play take a turn producing some music with it.
* I'd consider having the instrument's sections, independently and connected, brought to a repair tech with a Magnahelic machine to test the instrument's abilty to seal.
* With shorts not long pants on, as we need access to human flesh upon wish to effect a seal at the bottom end of a clarinet section, I'd take each section and seal its bottom with the flesh of one's thigh, cover the section's holes and attempt to both blow and suck air from the top to check the seal.
These tests may help reveal whether the problem is you, the instrument, or perhaps a product of both your play and the instrument's need of repair.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2024-12-10 20:40
If the “A” key adjustment helped before in a meaningful way, I’d make sure there is always a little play between that and the “G#” key. If they start off right upon one another, the slightest swelling of the “A” key pad will prevent the “G#” from fully closing.
……………Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk
Date: 2024-12-10 20:48
Bsharp wrote:
> It manifests
> itself often first on open notes like g4 or c6. Then it can
> correct itself for a few minutes but then the problem continues
> even on other notes like d4.
>
My first thought (but not the only possibility) is that water is running into a tone hole somewhere near the top of the instrument enough to block it when it should be open. Or the water is somehow sitting in the hole even during swabbing. I've had this happen with clarion notes when water has collected in the register tube. Of course, your problem wouldn't be the register tube if you're having trouble with chalumeau and throat notes.
I once had my bass go very wonky for a few weeks until my repair tech at the time found a pad with a torn covering that was soaking up moisture and swelling up as I played. When the pad was dry, the instrument played normally. But once it swelled enough to lift slightly off the pad seat, the whole instrument seemed to lock up. It was a tiny tear that wasn't visible without removing the key and looking directly at the pad.
Karl
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Author: kdk
Date: 2024-12-10 21:04
SecondTry wrote:
> * With shorts not long pants on, as we need access to human
> flesh upon wish to effect a seal at the bottom end of a
> clarinet section, I'd take each section and seal its bottom
> with the flesh of one's thigh...
Or, for those in colder climates, use a well-fitted rubber plug (available in hardware stores) to close the bottom of the bore or just pull your pants leg up to your knee for some calf exposure.
Karl
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Author: m1964
Date: 2024-12-10 21:20
There are techs and there are techs.
Where I live, there is a tech (trumpet player) who fixes every wind instrument, from oboe to trombone. I saw his work on someone's clarinet and did not like it.
If I went to a tech, I would want them to be able to check the clarinet thoroughly, including a play test.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-12-11 00:30
Assuming you don't have a damaged chimney, all pad leaks should be revealed by a four point feeler gauge check. Do it using thin plastic wrapper when the problem sets in, as you probably have a damaged pad swelling and preventing another pad from closing properly. That's my guess anyway.
Another test is to get someone to apply a little extra pressure to cups with a finger while you try the troublesome notes.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: kdk
Date: 2024-12-11 00:44
What area do you live in? There's a trumpet-player tech near me who actually does decent work on clarinets, but I had a serious issue with him over a repair on a student's saxophone once and, I think, am now persona non-grata.
Karl
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2024-12-11 01:38
Once you really eliminate yourself/mouthpiece/reed as the issue, here are a few things that can cause an intermittent problem (just at the top of my head, there are probably more). Also, since it is happening on open G, it is unlikely that's it's coming from an open key.
- Pad swelling. Can cause problems once you play a bit and it becomes wet. This usually means the problem becomes gradually worse when you play, and less likely to be random (e.g. suddenly happens, then doesn't happen a moment later, etc.), though not necessarily (e.g. a key sometimes closes with enough force to overcome it, sometimes not).
- Key catching on another key... but only sometimes. For example I've seen a clarinet where the top trill key was barely touching the next trill key, just enough that in most cases it was closing, but occasionally it was catching and wasn't.
- Key not closing sometimes because of binding. This can happen for various reasons. Temperature and moisture causing a hinge to slightly bind, basically exaggerating an underlying issue but not enough to always happen. A very loose hinge can make a key close differently each time and maybe leak. Or a cracked/rusted/damaged spring.
- It could be a combination of things, for example a spring becoming much weaker causes your fingers to open a key from just leaning against it.
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Author: Bsharp
Date: 2024-12-11 05:37
I played today for an hour on my older R13 A using same mouthpiece and reeds. No problems whatsoever. I conclude that takes me, the mouthpiece and the reed out of the equation.
I am bringing the problem instrument back to the tech later this week and he will keep it until he figures it out (I hope).
Thanks for all your suggestions. Indeed, I had my wife press down on closed pads when sound production would suddenly stop to see if that was the problem - but to no avail. And the screw on the A key had been adjusted to allow some wiggle room.
This is a mystery to me for now.
Stephen Schiffman
Post Edited (2024-12-11 05:40)
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Author: m1964
Date: 2024-12-12 08:47
Bsharp wrote:
> I played today for an hour on my older R13 A using same
> mouthpiece and reeds. No problems whatsoever. I conclude
> that takes me, the mouthpiece and the reed out of the equation.
>
> I am bringing the problem instrument back to the tech later
> this week and he will keep it until he figures it out (I
> hope).
I'd ask the tech to check if there are any rod screws binding inside the tubes.
I had this problem- a rod screw binding inside the tube on a brand new Prestige.
Also, hopefully, he will check tone holes for micro cracks/chips.
Would be nice to know what he finds out.
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2024-12-13 17:56
As someone has pointed out, one person's excellent tech is another's 'avoid like the plague'. I would get a second opinion.
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Author: Bsharp
Date: 2024-12-15 17:03
I picked up the A clarinet from my tech yesterday. Fixed now. He said something about a tube (which he said was rough and poorly finished) and that the A key was binding. m1964 gets a gold star. It plays well now.
Now that I see he can solve these kinds of mysteries (to me), I’ve given him my year old R13 Bb to look at; it has an intermittent problem happening on the lower lever keys (B4, C5 and C#5) that stops the sound. And the C#5 key is somewhat stiff . (Not a crows foot problem - all that checks out well). Let’s see if he can diagnose and fix this issue as well.
These are year-old new Buffet R13s. No quality control it seems…
Stephen Schiffman
Post Edited (2024-12-15 17:04)
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2024-12-15 17:33
I was somewhat surprised to learn that minor leaks are not uncommon, and it's entirely possible to play despite them. They allow notes to speak but slightly worsen their response, timbre or intonation. Players may not even notice such leaks, unconsciously adapting to them or tolerating them.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2024-12-15 18:17
Bsharp wrote:
> These are year-old new Buffet R13s. No quality control it
> seems…
>
That's why Hans Moennig back in the mid-20th century built such a cottage industry of rebuilding Buffets. They were at the time the leading clarinet brand, competing mostly with Selmer and to a much smaller extent with Leblanc, so the choices were limited, and the Buffets, especially the R13 in the U.S. (before Buffet started building its stable of different models), were the majority choice of "classical" clarinetists. The difference between a "Moennig Buffet" and a Buffet off the factory shelf was major.
So, this is not a new problem. The trade-off was always that a new R13 cost (then and even now) a fraction of what a Lurée oboe or a Haines flute cost, both of which were built on demand with very long wait times and generally no choice of instruments for the player who ordered one. And, of course, there was (and is) no comparison at all with the cost of high quality violins and violas (to stay within the equivalent size range). The difference today is that there has risen such a profusion of different instrument manufacturers, producing clarinets in a similar price range, that it isn't any longer the bargain it once seemed to be, even counting in the cost of an after-market setup.
Karl
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Author: kdk
Date: 2024-12-15 18:23
Philip Caron wrote:
> I was somewhat surprised to learn that minor leaks are not
> uncommon, and it's entirely possible to play despite them.
> They allow notes to speak but slightly worsen their response,
> timbre or intonation. Players may not even notice such leaks,
> unconsciously adapting to them or tolerating them.
That's why a being connected to really good repair tech is a must for a player to function at his or her best. The adaptations and accommodations you make to a faulty response are usually detrimental to your playing. Having a really good tech seal all the leaks and adjust the spring tensions can make a clarinet feel like a different instrument, one that's much easier to play. You just don't know what you're fighting until the clarinet isn't fighting back any more.
Karl
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Author: m1964
Date: 2024-12-15 21:24
Bsharp wrote:
"I picked up the A clarinet from my tech yesterday. Fixed now. He said something about a tube (which he said was rough and poorly finished) and that the A key was binding. ...It plays well now.
...These are year-old new Buffet R13s. No quality control it seems…"
Stephen, thanks for the update.
Buffet relies on its dealers to address all the problems at the time of a sale. I guess, some are better than others in fixing the problems.
BTW, you are not alone - I already replaced a few pads and had to re-finish one tone hole on my Prestiges that are about two years old. When I take a key that uses a rod screw out, I check for binding- I was taught to do that by my tech (who is excellent).
Also, not unusual to see a wood grain opening up at the top edge of a tone hole, thus creating a tiny leak- get a few of those and the clarinet suddenly becomes resistant.
Anyway, I am glad you can enjoy your toys again.
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