 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2024-07-11 05:37
When I was a kid, some of the most productive practice I did on Saxophone was with my friend. He'd play something...some little ditty or riff, then I'd either repeat it or continue the theme - and we'd keep going that way until we blew up or it went wonky.
As an adult who loves pre-1940s jazz, I find that same call and response vital to the clarinet's role in the bands in which I play - the style of jazz I enjoy most.
I'm curious though - is there room for such a technique in classical? If so, at what level should it be introduced?
Is there reason to avoid it? To embrace it?
Does anyone here use it while teaching classical students?
Just curious.
Thanks,
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2024-07-11 16:04
You hear "call and response" very frequently in classical music. Often the response is scored for different instruments. The effect is often greater than a simple restatement of the call. On a single instrument, the idea is to vary dynamics or some other attribute in the response. When and how much to vary depends on the rest of the piece. Sometimes the variation is noted in the score for the performer; other times a simple restatement is best; sometimes an echo effect is felt; other times a progression is indicated. It depends on the music and on what specifically was done in the "call".
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Author: ruben
Date: 2024-07-11 17:14
I found this very interesting and can't wait to try it out on my students. People wrongly associate improvisation exclusively with jazz. Classical musicians of the past-up until the end of the 19th century-were often great improvisers.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2024-07-11 20:34
Fuzzy, et. al,
This reminds me of theory, harmony, and sight-singing class when I was an undergraduate back in the dark ages.
The professor would give us a starting note at the piano and then play a musical phrase. We wrote down the notes with the correct rhythm. Or we had to sing a musical phrase at sight. The main class was sight-singing and dictation.
What we were really training was our ears and our minds. You automatically learned what an interval of a 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and all sorts of 7th sounds like. We used intervals rather than the solfeggio (do, re, mi...) method.
I have always been a good jazz improvisor and would suspect any musician with a degree in music is or could be. We can look at a musical part or score and play it in our heads. Do enough of this stuff and you will start mentally fingerings the passage.
Having your students listen to you playing a lick and then playing it back is a perfect example of employing many of the skills I outlined above.
Nice stuff,
Hank
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-07-11 21:12
Hi Fuzzy,
I'm also very enamored of the sort of musical exchange /device you have brought up, and I have noticed it used in many genres of music, so I think there's something there we all tend to relate to.
Call and response.
Call to arms.
Question and answer.
Joust.
Echo.
Courtship with developments.
Argument.
Discussion.
Doubt and reassurance.
There's a wide range of things we relate to there, which can be powerfully expressed in musical composition or naturally Jazz. It's just too good to not find its way into everything a bit here and there.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: brycon
Date: 2024-07-11 23:44
Quote:
I'm curious though - is there room for such a technique in classical? If so, at what level should it be introduced?
Is there reason to avoid it? To embrace it?
Does anyone here use it while teaching classical students?
I improvise in a classical style: because clarinet's a single-line instrument, it's mostly ornamentation, lead ins, and cadenzas, but I've also recently incorporated improvised preludes and dance suites into recitals. And while I don't expect students to improvise under the pressure of a public performance, I use some low-stakes improvisational activities in studio classes and masterclasses.
I think improvisation is a vital teaching tool for many reasons (and could go on at length about it). Two of the most important concepts it helps me teach are:
1. It establishes a link among the mind, ears, and body; i.e. a student imagines something, a line or even more abstractly, a character or mood, and then must realize it on the instrument. This idea, of course, can then be applied to "normal" notated music.
2. It gets students out of a perfectionist mindset. The idea that you play a piece slowly and perfectly and then bump up the tempo is, as I see it, not a good practice technique (especially if it's the only practice technique). It leads us to overlook underlying issues with our playing and ingrains anxiety into the performance experience. Good practicing, by contrast, involves playing things transposed, forwards and backwards, with different rhythms, at different dynamics, etc., that is, there's an improvisational quality to it. You feel as though a phrase of music is a block of legos, which you can examine from various angles, take apart, recombine with other blocks, and so on.
Among the various improvisational exercises I use, the one closest to call-and-response is an exercise I stole from Mozart. You play the first half of a period, and the student answers. Take the first four bars of the Mozart concerto, for example: (in a simplified skeletal version): G-E / G-E / F-D F-D / C-B to which the most basic answer would be G-E / G-E / F-D F-D / C-B-C. From here, you could begin to ornament and elaborate things.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2024-07-12 00:49
I improvise four-bar, eight-bar, etc. introductions to studies that I play (Rose, Jeanjean, anything). I also improvise "à la" (à la Debussy, à la Brahms, etc)...if I'm playing a piece by Debussy, I'll do an improvisation that sounds at least vaguely like Debussy. This enables me to develop a feel for the composer's tonal language, style, poetic world. I have no illusions about the quality of these improvisations, but they make me attuned to the composer's world.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: brycon
Date: 2024-07-12 01:46
Quote:
I improvise four-bar, eight-bar, etc. introductions to studies that I play (Rose, Jeanjean, anything). I also improvise "à la" (à la Debussy, à la Brahms, etc)...if I'm playing a piece by Debussy, I'll do an improvisation that sounds at least vaguely like Debussy. This enables me to develop a feel for the composer's tonal language, style, poetic world. I have no illusions about the quality of these improvisations, but they make me attuned to the composer's world.
This is a great exercise also! For students, I find more guardrails or constraints are helpful to avoid them getting overwhelmed. So a way to build to this could be playing scales or other technical exercises in the style of a composer. What would a C major scale in the style of Debussy sound like? Maybe the air's a little bit warmer and diffuse, creating a sotto voce effect, the fingers are very smooth, the line swells a little bit in the middle of the scale, etc.
I also enjoy composing pieces in the style of other composers. Just finishing up a prelude and fugue in the style of the Well-Tempered Klavier pairs. I think you're exactly right that it makes you attuned to the composer's world: you have to make choices about what to do, then you can compare your choices with his or hers (what keys should I visit, what soprano line goes with this cadence, what left-hand figuration fits the character of the piece, etc.) I think this sort of thing should be emphasized much more in music schools than trying to find a "unique voice."
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2024-07-12 07:23
Attachment: Seashore Test.pdf (481k)
Hi All,
All good ideas above but consider this, please. The ears must be able to discriminate one tone from another as well as hear differences in rhythm, loudness, timbre, and rhythm.
If you are not familiar with the Seashore Tests of Musical Ability, you might want to read the attachment.
Hank
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-07-12 09:40
That's a remarkable bit of scientific work, although no doubt rather dated in its premises which typically bias the methods and analysis of results in scientific testing. For example, the notion of musical aptitude of as prescribed to differing races, wound no doubt today be replaced with a more enlightened focus on cultural influences and the social environment of individuals. Also, while much about the human brain remains rather cloudy, our understanding of it and its forms of development in response to stimulus, has advanced significantly since that study was made. What is clear is that the stimulation and development of the brain to certain exercises , tends to develop a " skill set" which extends into wider areas than previously assumed. It's rather like if you hit a switch, and not only does the light in the room go on, but other lights are also glowing in other parts of the house. It's this factor which I suspect is the most significant and exiting element of this topic so well raised by Fuzzy, because it introduces a special dimension into the musical equation.
Nice one Fuzzy and ALL.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: ruben
Date: 2024-07-12 16:36
brycon: I always find your comments so enlightening! I wish I knew who you were.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
Post Edited (2024-07-12 16:37)
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Author: brycon
Date: 2024-07-12 22:27
Quote:
brycon: I always find your comments so enlightening! I wish I knew who you were.
Sent you an email. Cheers!
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-07-13 11:53
Another aspect of music which perhaps doesn't receive enough attention as part of standard music education are rhythms. No doubt because they tend to get roughly divided into genra-appropriate groupings. But here also I think there lies a whole dimension of creatively, expression and expanded musical horizons for developing musicians to tap into. As one small example, I offer this video of Dave Brubeck covering " Golden Brown" by the Stranglers. This never would have happened had that band succumbed to the pressures of their producer to keep the song a straightforward 4/4 composition.( " Hey guys?..... this is supposed to be a Rock band")
https://youtu.be/ZXEh9e7VL7K?si=Hew0PtcoOAXsUYr
It is, after all, the rule breaker who become the new music world conquistadors.
The more popular appreciation of Flamenco music for example, can be traced directly to Camarón, who thanks to his god-like standing in the Gypsy community, revolutionized the genre without getting his kneecaps broken for " bastardizing " the time honored traditions. Of course, instruments like the " Cajón" were always fundamental to traditional Flamenco.....Well NO! Camarón brought that from Brazil, but now no Flamenco group can be seen without it. In a music which exults the human condition in terms of a total immersion in the pain and the passion of life ...might as well go ahead and pull the stops out.
I would have to draw the line at Pop-Classical however....in fact a walled compound with lots of barbed wire somehow comes to mind. Lol
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2024-07-13 20:14
Thanks to everyone for their responses - I appreciate the discussion and what each of you have added to the conversation.
I especially enjoyed brycon's approach, and also ruben's idea of "in the style of"...great idea!
Hank touched on what is (to me) an important aspect of what I think improvisation can do for a student: the training of intervals. Unfortunately, my aural theory classes used solfedge and voice. As an instrumentalist (who lacked every confidence in vocal abilities and was very self-conscious) I struggled in those classes. Had they given me an instrument, I would have sailed through...but that's another topic for another time, I guess.
So much of what I learned from call and response (and improvising in general) is hard to list because it became so much a part of the "every day" for me. However, I think these are the basics:
1. Intervals - I began to think much more clearly in intervals. Training the fingers to go from a specific fingering to a specific fingering to produce the anticipated sounds/interval the player is anticipating/desiring
2. Fingerings - "Tricky" fingerings/combinations became much easier and less of a road block (This one surprised me, but was quite noticable...my mind approached the fingerings differently than when I saw the notes on paper.)
3. Keys - I began thinking more in specific key/scales - internalizing them, and beginning to understand how they related - where they wanted to lead to, etc. (This is a big one) Thinking in keys and understanding the various uses of each note in the scale to achieve what you want...but coming to it from an aural approach - immediately hearing where it wants to lead instead of a logical/theory/paper approach where rules are laid out to understand and follow later.
4. Beginning to understand the feel of chord structure/changes in a different way.
5. Ease of playing what is heard/thought (I know there are other ways to achieve this - but call and response/improvisation were the method which worked for me.)
Again - thanks to all of you for sharing your thoughts and ideas.
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: ruben
Date: 2024-07-14 10:12
Thank you for this very interesting topic, Fuzzy, and just one last thing: your exercise prompts musicians to actually listen to their playing partners. I notice, with dismay, that there exist even high-level players that are poor listeners. The exception: piano accompanists. They are professional listeners.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
Post Edited (2024-07-14 10:12)
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2024-07-14 21:02
ruben,
Yes! "...listen to their playing partners..."
Thanks for mentioning this!
In early jazz, we call this, "Having a conversation." One person offers a musical idea, and the other person responds. Much like verbal conversation. Also much like verbal conversation, there's a reason or thread behind it - even if the ending topic is different than the beginning topic. A person must listen to what the other is saying in order to have a meaningful conversation.
Of course, the same is true in solo breaks where folks trade 8s, 4s, 2s, etc.
Here's a great snippet of Chloe Feoranzo and James Evans. I know folks generally are reluctant to follow links out to YouTube, but this one is queued to the beginning of their conversation and so wonderfully demonstrates the idea of musical conversation in call and response: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTFXYDyBRr4&t=176s - music which would never otherwise be realized on the printed page.
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
[Edit: changed "said" to "saying" - also would like to add that the same is true when harmonizing with someone else - the musician must listen in order to support what is being said instead of trampling all over the main speaker.
Post Edited (2024-07-14 21:04)
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Author: brycon
Date: 2024-07-15 00:33
Quote:
I notice, with dismay, that there exist even high-level players that are poor listeners.
I'm really into basketball: played growing up, still play at the gym, watch a lot of games, etc. The other day, I was listening to a podcast with a couple of pro players who were talking about how, when they go to the gym, most the young players are practicing complicated drills instead of playing games. And at the higher levels of high school and college, then, there are a ton of virtuoso individual players who have no feel for the game and can't function on a team. (And according to them, this trend is happening in other team sports as well.)
Seems something similar is happening in music: the Instagramification of music education maybe. There's so much content along the lines of "Use these 3 exercises for a great staccato" and social media gives such an illusion of the way the world actually is that perhaps people have grown to see the clarinet simply as a series of exercises and drills to master. Or maybe it's just comforting to think this way because you can see similar advice on the Bboard: "Work through Baermann 3, then Rose 32 etudes, and then you'll be ready for whatever repertoire you want to tackle." But I think the world has definitely moved to a place where education is transactional and informational. And as a result, people don't actually learn the important stuff.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-07-15 10:29
I remember that when I was learning to drive, my instructor was a stickler for frequently checking the rear view mirror. The point being that although keeping your eyes on the road ahead covers your own conduct, it doesn't include an ample awareness of those with whom you must share the road. When people are playing music in a group, there tend to be those who keep their eyes glued to the sheet music, and those with a habit of stealing glances away from time to time.( often these are the same who will tend to turn a little towards their playing companions).Those who keep their eyes on the page may well be good listeners, but those who glance about periodically, are I think, engaging in a practice relating to conscientious self orientation within the group. So I would offer that encouraging this practice on the educational level may tend to breed better listeners.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: ruben
Date: 2024-07-15 13:18
If I didn't have eye contact with my jazz ensemble, we couldn't play. We never know what we're going to do! Eye-contact is thought transmission and it is something that really should be developed. That said, I've played with a blind Classical pianist and we were nevertheless able to use this sixth sense.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: donald
Date: 2024-07-15 14:22
You know what my first improvisation lesson was? Singing the hairy muppet part in Mah na Mah na when I was 7 or 8 years old. I loved the way he just went off "scatting" and started doing this myself. While I obviously needed a good deal more CRAFT in order to properly improvise, this exercise taught me to structure an improv rhythmically and helped me develop confidence with the concept of just "taking off on your own" that would years later be brought back into my playing.
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