 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Janice G
Date: 2024-06-02 17:45
Hello everyone. This is my first post. I started clarinet in 1970 (classical at high school)but hardly played from 1980 until I retired in 2018. During our covid lockdown, I decided to learn to play jazz. I now play regularly in jam sessions here in Andalusia. However, at times I struggled to be heard over the saxes and guitars. I borrowed my brother in law's old alto and I alternate between that and my B&H imperial 926, depending on the tune.
My issue is that my borrowed alto is a generic no name instrument and I would like some advice about buying my own. I am clearly a beginner at the sax but have a lot of clarinet experience. My budget is up to £1000. A friend has recommended the Better Sax alto and I know that Yamaha student models are well regarded. What do people think would be a good choice for me?
I use legere european cut reeds, 2.5, with an open tip B&H no. 3 mouthpiece on clarinet and american cut 2.5s on my current sax (with a generic mouthpiece).
I am also posting on SOTW, but I would like some clarinetists' views too.
Many thanks in advance for any advice.
Janice
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Author: m1964
Date: 2024-06-02 20:22
Hi Janice,
You may get more responses if you post on the doublers board- on the top of this page click on the gray "BBoard" tab and you will see that board too.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2024-06-02 20:58
The most important thing is DON'T play it like a clarinet as you'll go painfully sharp up top. Sax embouchure is more relaxed than clarinet embouchure and if you tighten up as you go higher up, you'll end up going sharp. Use a tuner to keep tabs on your tuning.
When tuning, tune to lower register G (Concert Bb) as that's a nice stable note and also allows you to have your right hand freed up to adjust the mouthpiece position on the crook cork. If the crook cork is still the original and not replaced by a much longer cork (usually done to hide the scratches made when removing the old one or from careless sanding), then place the mouthpiece on the cork to a distance of around 25mm/1" from the end of the crook - you can always mark that with a marker pen with an inconspicuous dot on the underside as a reference.
Only use cork grease on the crook cork but never on the crook tenon - keep the tenon and socket clean by wiping both dry after use with an old T-shirt or cotton duster.
Reed position on the mouthpiece relative to the tip rail will do the same thing on clarinet in giving you finer adjustments to the reed strength. I recommend using a Yamaha 4C or 5C to begin with or a Selmer S80 C** or D. A 2.5 strength reed should be enough as you don't want to use too strong a reed or the same strength as you use on clarinet as saxes behave very differently to clarinet - too hard reeds will cause problems at both ends of the range as well as won't allow you to play with much control (and I'm sure you've heard many sax players who can't control their dynamics).
While I definitely recommend Yamaha saxes as they are always a safe bet and have excellent resale value, be sure if you do by used that it has genuinely been fully serviced by a reputable repairer, has no leaks and is well regulated. Leaks in saxes will cause more problems with response than they can do with clarinets, especially in the lower register. The YAS 280 is the current entry level alto and the YAS-480 is their intermediate model, then the 62II being the now downgraded pro level model (the Custom 82Z is essentially taking the baton from the original 62 series and the Custom 875EX being their top tier model).
I've done some repair work on a Better Sax (by Bundy) alto and I found the metal very thin gauge compared to Yamaha altos - this one had been kicked off its stand by a kid at a wedding and the body ended up banana-shaped and the high E and F# pillars pushed into the body. I had to remove the socket, lower 8ve vent and the high E and F# pillars to straighten it all out and managed to do that relatively easily due to the thin gauge brass and the lacquer didn't even burn with the unsoldering and resoldering work as it's very durable. The keywork also felt soft, but it was easy enough to straighten out where to was bent and I assume it's still in regulation as I haven't heard anything otherwise from the owner.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Janice G
Date: 2024-06-05 13:12
Thank you very much for all the replies. I'll repost to the doublers board, great idea.
Chris, special thanks for such a comprehensive reply. So much information. I'm hoping to play test the Yamaha and others in that price range when I'm back in Edinburgh this summer. In the meantime, I'm working on my embouchure and trying to keep it looser than my clarinet embouchure. I've found that I have a tendency to tighten up as I play longer.
In the meantime, I'm going to play test mouthpieces in the local shop in Malaga. Particularly the Yamaha 4c and 5c.
Thanks again for all the replies and helpful information.
Janice
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Author: David Eichler
Date: 2024-06-06 04:43
Unless you can get a strong recommendation for something else, I would suggest the Yamaha student or intermediate instruments as your best bet. And, buying used is the most economical way, provided you have an accurate assessment of its condition, so that you know how much money you will have to spend to put it into good playing condition, unless you can confirm that it has been recently serviced by a competent technician.
As for clarinet, it is possible to play it pretty loudly, but you you may have to change your equipment and technique and accept that you might need to adapt your tonal concept. That said, Benny Goodman seemed to project pretty well with a fairly moderate setup. Still, no combination of technique and equipment will enable a clarinet to project well over a big band playing full volume or an electric ensemble, without a microphone. However, due to the complexity of the clarinet's fingering system, it is much harder to improvise with, compared with the sax. The sax is much more intuitive, much more of an ear instrument, for jazz.
By the way, if you are not doing so already, learn to play by ear, and learn to play common jam tunes like All the Things You Are and There Will Never be Another You by heart. Don't be like those people who can only play by reading out of fake books or think improvising is just applying chord scales to each chord in insolation. That is not jazz.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2024-06-06 18:34
If you're playing in a Rock/Pop setting, then something like a metal 7* mouthpiece with a high baffle or small tonechamber will give you the power you need to make your presence known, but that same type of mouthpiece won't be suitable for use in a Classical or concert band setting where you need far more control and a 4/5 or C**/D plastic or ebonite mouthpiece is more suitable.
Control is the key word - when clarinets are possible to play any note from a fff down to nothing, that's not as easy on saxes and especially the low notes - you want both ease of attack as well as control of all dynamics and doing a diminuendo right down to nothing is one way of testing your setup.
While saxes tend to get lumped in with clarinets because they both use a single reed/mouthpiece combo, they couldn't be further apart in how they both behave and if anything, saxes are far more closely related to oboes than any other woodwind instrument as both behave in exactly the same way, despite using a different tone generator, a different body material and a different fingering system which is pretty inconsequential - the conical bore reed instrument part being the defining factor as they're both derived from shawms.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Janice G
Date: 2024-06-07 13:27
Thanks David. I believe I can project quite well on Clarinet. The Boosey and Hawkes Imperial has a 15mm bore. Combined with an open lay mouthpiece, it gives quite a sound. The altissimo is not a problem but the other registers can be drowned out when there are three saxes in the group. When there's lots of individual solos I can take my turn on the clarinet but when we're supporting and harmonising the alto is better.
Re playing by ear. I completely agree. The keyboard player and guitarists often have a discussion about keys and chords. The wind players use their ears. This was a real challenge at first but I'm getting better every week.
By the way, we also have a couple of flute players and an electrified violin. They are excellent at playing by ear.
Thanks for recommending the Yamaha. I'm going to play test them when I go to Edinburgh in August. Im6also hoping to play test a Buffet 400, which is on offer.
Thanks again,
Janice
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Author: Janice G
Date: 2024-06-07 13:35
Thanks Chris. I completely agree. The saxophone responds completely differently to the clarinet. For example, I can play altissimo on clarinet up to c7 but I have yet to get an acceptable altissimo note of any pitch out of a saxophone. I'm actually on the bus into Málaga to try various mouthpieces at La Musa Instrumentos. They have a good selection of Yamaha mouthpieces and other brands. They also have their own brand metal mouthpiece. It will be interesting to compare them.
Thanks again,
Janice
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Author: super20dan
Date: 2024-06-08 18:48
forget about yamaha mpc. these are for concert band only. i dont recommend a metal mpcs either. unless you need extreme volume. if on a budget get a rico metalite . its cheap easy to play and very potent. i recommend rico plasticover reeds or legere american cut . these will also give you added cut and volume and edge with less work.
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Author: David Eichler
Date: 2024-06-09 00:09
"Thanks Chris. I completely agree. The saxophone responds completely differently to the clarinet. For example, I can play altissimo on clarinet up to c7 but I have yet to get an acceptable altissimo note of any pitch out of a saxophone. I'm actually on the bus into Málaga to try various mouthpieces at La Musa Instrumentos. They have a good selection of Yamaha mouthpieces and other brands. They also have their own brand metal mouthpiece. It will be interesting to compare them."
To learn altissimo on the sax, practice playing overtones from the lowest notes, without using the register key. Also, the alternate high e, f and f sharp fingerings are a lead-in to altissimo. Try slurring up through these to the basic altissimo g fingering once you have the overtones going.
The Meyer 5M has been a standard mouthpiece for alto sax, for beginners and professionals, for ages, and is still a top choice for jazz. I started on one and still play one today. Avoid the standard Yamaha mouthpieces like the 4C for jazz. They are more of a concert mouthpiece. Of course you can play jazz on anything, but a concert-style mouthpiece will be relatively dark and might not have as much projection as you might want for jazz.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2024-06-10 20:34
I could've sworn I suggested a Meyer 6 for Big Band sax section use or small Jazz combo on here - maybe I did and forgot to post it.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Janice G
Date: 2024-06-11 13:57
Thanks David but I've gone with a Yamaha 5c. I really like the sound it gives me. Maybe it's because I started out as a classical clarinetist or because I like the jazz standards and 40s/50s style.
Given that we have two flutes and an electric violin and that the Spanish guys like to play Spanish pop as well as jazz, the 5c gives me a good blend.
Chris, perhaps I'll upgrade to a Meyer 6 once I've chosen my own sax.
Thanks again for all your advice.
Janice
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Author: David Eichler
Date: 2024-06-11 14:17
"I could've sworn I suggested a Meyer 6 for Big Band sax section use or small Jazz combo on here - maybe I did and forgot to post it." The Meyer 6 is good for that purpose, though players like Phil Woods and Cannonball Adderley did just fine with the Meyer 5. For someone just starting out on say, I'd start with the Meyer 5M or some of similar style and resistance to start.
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