 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-10-20 01:18
Hello to all,
I have been mostly doing reading here lately, not posting, trying to not P... people off.
In the mean while I have been communicating with Clark Fobes with specific questions. He recommended me the Nova vs the 10K, since it is basically a mold of the 10K just at a lower price.
My Ego tells me to go for the 10K though, well what I think my ego is. Sometimes it is difficult to keep all those little voice identified
Anyway since getting things posted from the US to EU is tiresome and expensive I was wondering If anyone has first hand experience with both MP's, Preferably with the same facing for an accurate comparising.
Currently I am using the Fobes Debut with CF+, but since I tend to deaden the reed when going near or above the Clarion G, so I am looking beyond the Debut, and Clarck recommended a bigger opening.
I am using Pilgenstorfer Dolce 3,0.
The 3,5 still seems a bit hard for me at the moment.. But I do feel I am getting closer.
Any thoughts on the topic are ofcourse very welcome.
Kind greats
Matthieu
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-10-20 03:57
I have a 10k that I love......but there is a story.
I was going through a phase of proving that the basic lay dimensions will get you mostly where you want to go. That is if you have a favorite mouthpiece and superimpose those dimensions on anything else, you get your favorite mouthpiece. During a trip to San Francisco I spent an hour or so with Mr. Fobes and a mouthpiece of his I had for a while. He put the exact dimensions on it and low and behold......it didn't feel right. After considering the mouthpiece I used as a paradigm, Mr. Fobes said that the difference, for me, was going to be that the mouthpiece I preferred was a Zinner "A model" (not A-frame). He had a few lying around and put my facing on one of those and I bought it instantly, it plays great. So Clark Fobes proved to me that the tone chamber configuration plays a big part in the resistance vs free blowing nature of a mouthpiece almost as much as the lay itself.
I also did try a friend's Debut for a few minutes and found it very very close to the original Fobes that I had. It is a quality made product with a good basic opening, length of lay and thinness of the rails.
But I would say though that whatever you buy you need to try it and see how well that specific mouthpiece works for you. The amount of labor put into it and the cost really don't tell you that.......it's all in its performance.
....................Paul Aviles
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Author: Ed
Date: 2023-10-20 06:19
I play on Clark's 10K mouthpieces. Previously I had also used Clark's Zinner mouthpieces. I have tried the Nova as well as the Debut. Honestly, all are really excellent.
The Nova is made from a Babbitt blank. It is a nicely responsive, resonant mouthpiece. The 10K has a slightly different feel. I would say that the Nova is not inferior, but slightly different.
I would trust Clark's judgment, BUT, if you would then be haunted by the desire for the 10K, just go for it. Either way, you can't go wrong!
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-10-20 15:34
Hey all,
@Paul
Thanks for your story, much appreciated! After all that I read here and started to understand, Iwas not very surprised that the lay on your MP wasn't as you hoped it would be.
As I understand it, it is all about the combination (to many factors to mention) and also your personal preference / anatomy that needs to be just right.
After all, putting your favorite lounge chair in your ferrari (both apart very nice items) just doesn't work..
Labor and cost themselves are indeed no determining factors, experience and knowledge from the person behind the labor and who's setting the price is something I would consider important.
Did Mr. Fobes give you a pre-emptive thought on what would happen before he adjusted the facing your MP?
Anyways, as we all know, the only real valid method of choosing a trying them all out, with all sorts of (new) reeds. Unfortunately this is not an option for me. I wish nothing more then to be able to take my motorbike and ride to San Fransisco.
About the Debut, I agree it is a really nice MP, I just (currently) believe, the facing type might be wrong /less optimal for me, as I just can't keep the reed vibrating through the clarion register.
I am considering looking at a MP which is more open (as I am discussing with Clark and will also try to find relative topics one open MP's here (any suggestions?)).
To verify this, I will try to test a few local MP's with different openings (and comparable (not saying the same)) lay's and see if that experience can be transposed to the Fobes MP experience, but before I do this I am trying to get more informed, to get the most out of this session.
at the moment that is all I can do.
@Ed
Have you had the chance to use the NOVA yourself? If so I am very interested in some description on your experience.
@All
I have also looked at Wienermusic and there seem to be a few Zinner based MP's left (or am I confusing this with something else). In there any benefit (besides price, as they seem to be priced lower) to these?
Kind greats
Matthieu
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-10-21 01:54
Hi Matthieu,
It's really interesting that you lose the top notes. It sounds as though the question is "how open do you need to go?".
I'm just trying to work out if there is any way to narrow it down without expense or complications.
I wondered - did you get a chance to try those mps that I sent in the post? I felt as though they were too open for me. If that was right then it might be interesting to try then and see if you are more able to keep the clarion notes.
I didn't ever measure them, but there are threads on here about how to measure a mp. If you found that one was working better on the top notes, even if it is rubbish in other regards, maybe you could measure it to find out what it is?
I think one of them was a Selmer HS** which would be 1.20/18mm. That is quite a lot more open then your debut.
Adult learner, Grade 3
Equipment: Yamaha Custom CX Bb, Fobes 10K CF mp,
Legere Soprano Sax American Cut #2, Vandoren Optimum German Lig.
Post Edited (2023-10-21 01:57)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2023-10-21 02:31
Quote:
About the Debut, I agree it is a really nice MP, I just (currently) believe, the facing type might be wrong /less optimal for me, as I just can't keep the reed vibrating through the clarion register.
A couple things that come to mind- try a slightly harder reed, take more mouthpiece, focus on a firm but not biting embouchure. Perhaps one or a combination of these would work.
Quote:
Have you had the chance to use the NOVA yourself? If so I am very interested in some description on your experience.
I sold it to a friend who needed a mouthpiece for a student. But, before I sold it, I did practice on it and used it while teaching. I thought it was a very nice playing mouthpiece. The Nova is on a Babbitt blank and is probably similar to Clark's pro offerings before he started using Zinners years ago. I have known a few people who talk very enthusiastically about those early Babbitt Fobes mouthpieces.
Honestly I would have NO hesitation playing on the Nova. A quote from Clark on the Clarineat podcast a few years ago- "I will not sell anything that I don't believe in", really characterizes my thoughts about Clark's work. All of his equipment is of high quality, well thought out and designed really well.
You mention that you are considering something a bit more open. Perhaps try the 3L facing, although the standard CF+ is very comfortable with a very comfortable resistance.
As far as trying other mouthpieces of a similar facing- in my experience, the facing curve, length, chamber, baffle, bore, etc, can all affect the feel of a mouthpiece. I have sometimes tried mouthpieces of similar tip openings that varied tremendously. Some were very easy and comfortable to play, while others felt very odd and foreign. It may give you a sense, but ultimately the only real test is to play the mouthpiece you are considering.
I would trust Clark's thoughts and opinion. I have dealt with him for many years and his knowledge and experience has never steered me wrong.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-10-21 06:14
Two things. Just to clarify, the facings on both my old Fobes and the latest are for all purposes identical and both what works for me on another mouthpiece. What made the new Fobes work MUCH better was the configuration of the tone chamber. That completely changed the feel of the playing experience.
Another thing that makes the same reed play “stronger,” besides a more open tip, is a shorter lay. The best example of what goes on here is to hold a wooden ruler about three quarters of its length past the end of a desk. Strum it notating the pitch and how long it vibrates. Now pull more ruler back onto the desk with less protruding over. You’ll find that produces a higher pitch with a shorter time of vibration (more resistance). That is what you get with a shorter lay.
…………..Paul Aviles
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Author: JoeRomano
Date: 2023-10-21 10:08
I have a couple 10K mouthpieces, as well as one of Clark's older ones from 30 years ago. They all play great. The 10K produce a really big brilliant sound, but can also be warm. Articulation is easy as well. Definitely recommend them.
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Author: JTJC
Date: 2023-10-21 13:57
I'd read a lot on this BB about how good Fobes mouthpieces are, so decided to try one. I didn't want to jump straight in with a 10K, so chose the mid-priced Nova and bought one last December (2022). Because of difficulties getting it directly to the UK, I had it delivered to an American address that a UK friend was staying in over Christmas. When I eventually received the Nova in the New Year I found the rails uneven and the tip opening a good deal larger than the 1.08 version I'd ordered. One of those faults would be bad enough, but the two doesn't suggest good quality control. Unfortunately, by the time I'd received the mouthpiece I was outside the return period, so I was stuck with it. Otherwise I'd have returned it. Certainly shook my faith in the brand.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2023-10-21 15:02
JTJC- did you buy this directly from Clark or from somewhere else? I would say that without fail, every one of Clark's mouthpieces that I have ever seen or played were beautifully made and with great specs and quality control.
Regarding tip opening- I have seen instances where due to the way a person measures the tip or slight variances in gauges, people get slightly different tip measurements, but usually there is not a massive difference.
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-10-22 17:57
Hey to all,
@ Sunnydaze,
Hey Eh yeah that is indeed that question, I have made an agreement with a shop to go there next week to test a couple of vandoren MP's that (according to Clark, have a similar face. I have tried the Selmer HS** in that past, but it felt like there was a leak, sounded like there was an airjet been blown into the instrument which wasn't making any notes, just the air turbulence, this besides the normal sound which was also present. I haven't tested the higher notes specifically though. I will do that tonight. Just need to relax a bit, just came back from a very busy weekend.
@Ed
Thank you for your suggestions, I do believe I did those already though, nevertheless i will try it again, focussing on it specifically.
About Clark, I have been communicating wih him extensively when buying the Debut and as you said I trust Clark's thoughts and opinion! The sincerity and time he put in that, what must be s small sell for him, was really mind blowing to me.
Because of that I completely trust his advice, period! You stating his quote "I will not sell anything that I don't believe in", sounds very much like hime, so I am absolutely not surprised.
He adviced me the specific MP's to test to get a proper idea on what opening I should use and that is exactly what I am going to do. It's going to be a long travel but the experience will be so worth it.
@JTJC
Have you contacted Clark directly on this? As far as I know him, it feels to me he would really not be happy reading this and he would be as helpfull as he could be trying to solve the issue, maybe even still now? I would really try to contact him if you haven't done so yet.
Kind greats
Matthieu
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Author: JTJC
Date: 2023-10-23 13:36
The mouthpiece was bought directly from Clark's website, just delivery to me was indirect.
I've measured different ways, but can't get the specified 1.08 I ordered. One issue with measuring the tip opening on my Nova is that the inner edge (where I believe most take their tip opening measurement from) of the tip rail is hardly defined at all. I can see hand finishing has been done right at the end of the baffle leading to the inner edge of the tip rail. This could be the way it is supposed to be, but its not something I've seen on many mouthpieces.
From all the good and excellent experiences of Clark's work reported on this BB I'm happy to accept that my particular Nova is just one of those things. Unfortunate, but that's how it goes sometimes. There's too much cross-pond hassle involved in doing anything about this. I avoided tax etc issues by arranging delivery within the US, rather than to UK. The option of US delivery was just an opportunity that came up. It looks to me as if any solution would involve direct US/UK exchanges, and that would just potentially create additional UK taxes for me.
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-10-23 19:08
Hello to all.
@ Sunnydaze,
Hey Jennifer, I tried the Selmer HS** and although, the airy sound was still there, I did find that I could reach up to the highest note of the Calrion register, with fair ease, but realised I was putting more preassure on the reed then with my Fobes, because of trying to get ridd of the airy noise. So I tried it, not doing that and also SL, and noticed I had the same issue. Then I tried again with my Fobes and noticed that there too, when I put more pressure on the reed with my Fobes I can also reach the entire register. I will try tomorrow if I can go higher then the clarion register. Also I will go and try different MP's koming friday, that is worth doing anyways and it is in the planning now anyways. Also (test) ordered a yany sixs ligature, to do a more extended test, since I like that best (way best) when doing my ligature tests. So I will also use that on friday and I ordered a Claritie.
@ All
Anyways now I need to figure out if I need to either train my embochure more to be able to give more pressure of go for a more open MP.. the seurch continues :D
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