 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-07-11 00:33
Hello,
I got an older (s/n 55,xxx) Buffet that has all screws in bad condition- most of them have damaged slots.
Even though I could re-use the screws, it would be best to replace them.
Does anyone know a source where I can get screws that would fit the clarinet?
The newer screws with plastic collar do thread into the post, but are not going deep enough thus using them would require drilling into the posts so I think it would be much easier to replace the screws (if I can find the right ones).
Sent an e-mail to Ferree's but have not received a reply yet.
Thanks
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Author: pukalo
Date: 2023-07-11 03:24
Rice Clarinet Works sells both new and old-style Buffet pivot screws
https://www.clarinetworks.com/product/replacement-screws-for-buffet-clarinets/
Incidentally, they also sell a bolt-on left hand a-flat/e-flat key, specifically designed for Buffet clarinets, though it is quite expensive (250$ US), but I've heard good things about it from people who have one.
Post Edited (2023-07-11 03:32)
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Author: DNBoone
Date: 2023-07-11 07:29
Most repair shops will have them. Just ask for them to be replaced.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-07-11 20:36
DNBoone wrote:
> Most repair shops will have them. Just ask for them to be
> replaced.
Apparently, not all. I already asked... and was told that older Buffets use screws that are different from newer models, even those before Buffet started using the plastic collar.
To Chris P:
Thanks a lot for the links. I emailed Dawkes, waiting for their reply.
To Pukalo:
Rice Clarinet Works' screws are VERY expensive at $6 a piece.
My repair tech told me he can cut a new slot into the existing screws if i do not find replacements.
Windplus.net sells Buffet pivor scres but not the ones I need - their screws without plastic collar are 7mm, which they list as "short".
Edit: I just spoke Ferree's who sells two types of Buffet pivot screws. Their C4OC1 screws are for older Buffets, so I am ordering those and will update this post after I get the screws.
Thanks a lot to everyone who replied for your help.
Post Edited (2023-07-11 20:56)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-07-12 04:38
If you know the basic measurements of the point screws, I'm sure there's something currently available that can be used or adapted for use as a substitute.
The vital statistics being:
Thread size (being French, it'll be a metric thread),
Diameter of head (to the nearest 10th of a millimetre),
Total length of the screw (including head),
Depth (thickness) of head,
Length of threaded section,
Length of point,
Shape of point - is it a straight sided taper/cone or bullet shaped (curved sides)?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-07-14 22:14
Hi Chris,
Thanks for your help- the screws I got from Ferree's are good fit - it's listed as C40C1 on their website.
I am really surprised as almost all screws on that clarinet have damaged heads. Looks like some used a cheap screwdriver. The upper joint, surprisingly, seals fine, with very old pads. The lower does not.
Now I have to wait for Ferree's to get Lucien Deluxe stepped leather pads which are on back order. It seems like no one else makes stepped leather pads which I think give better coverage of tone hole surface.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-07-14 22:28
If the heads aren't too badly gouged up, then they can always be saved - recut the slots and reshape the heads with a file, followed up by papering up, burnishing and then tempering blue. A bench motor chuck will make light work of this.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2023-07-15 01:42
m1964 wrote:
> Hello,
> I got an older (s/n 55,xxx) Buffet that has all screws in bad
> condition- most of them have damaged slots.
> Even though I could re-use the screws, it would be best to
> replace them.
>
> Does anyone know a source where I can get screws that would fit
> the clarinet?
>
> The newer screws with plastic collar do thread into the post,
> but are not going deep enough thus using them would require
> drilling into the posts so I think it would be much easier to
> replace the screws (if I can find the right ones).
>
> Sent an e-mail to Ferree's but have not received a reply yet.
>
> Thanks
>
I was in the "same boat" weeks ago.
I bought these:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/323844735691
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Author: donald
Date: 2023-07-15 04:52
Further to Chris P above, I've seen an old clarinet where new slots had been cut into a few screws here and there- they had cut them at right angles to the original slot. Not sure if CP or any tech would recommend this, but it worked in this instance.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2023-07-15 13:00
>> Further to Chris P above, I've seen an old clarinet where new slots had been cut into a few screws here and there- they had cut them at right angles to the original slot. Not sure if CP or any tech would recommend this, but it worked in this instance. <<
If you are conscious of waste (even a few small screws makes a difference), want to save some cost (sometimes reslotting could be cheaper than replacing the screws, depending on the situation), don't mind the screw heads not looking like new (which you shouldn't), then yes it's a viable method, regardless of whether the slot is in the same or a different orientation from the original, and as long as they are still reliable (e.g. the heads are not about to crumble from being too worn).
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-07-15 17:46
I'd definitely NOT recommend cutting new slots at right angles to the existing ones as that will considerably weaken the heads. Should they bind up in the pillar and you need to remove them by applying more torque than normal, then the risk of the segments shearing off is considerable. I've seen it done and also done on rod screw heads which causes nothing but trouble and it looks amateurish.
It might work to remove screws where the slots are cut to the depth of a mere scratch and the slot has been rounded off and you're going to replace them anyway, but with regular depth slots (which can be up to 2mm deep), it will create a significant weakness and also allow the screw head to flare out and ream out the screw hole in the pillar head if the wrong screwdriver is used.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-07-22 21:11
Chris P wrote:
"If the heads aren't too badly gouged up, then they can always be saved - recut the slots and reshape the heads with a file, followed up by papering up, burnishing and then tempering blue. A bench motor chuck will make light work of this."
I just re-read your post and the phrase "tempering blue" caught my attention:
what is "tempering blue" ?
The replacement screws I got from Ferree's are of light color, unlike the original screws which are dark.
thanks
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-07-23 00:08
If they're made of stainless steel, then you can't temper them to get the colour in the same way you can temper carbon steel screws - stainless steel screws will turn a funny yellowy/pale blue colour which isn't all that nice compared to the deep blue carbon steel turns. Think of the blue colour vintage clock hands and screws are often tempered as well as the steel flat and needle springs used on clarinets.
Clean and polish the screw heads to a mirror finish, then using a blue gas flame (as opposed to a yellow flame), hold the screw using tweezers or forceps and carefully heat it up taking it in and out of the flame and watch the colour change from a straw colour (pale yellow) through to brown, then it'll turn purple and then to a deep blue colour and quench it (in oil or water) as soon as it turns blue.
If you heat it too much, it'll become a paler blue before becoming red hot which is too far. If you've overdone it, you can redo it again by papering it up and polishing it to a mirror finish and repeating the process again, only this time taking extra care to be sure you achieve the depth of blue that's desirable which is just after it's turned purple.
Cutting edges (eg. key barrel reamers and handmade taps) and burnishers require tempering to a straw colour and screwdriver tips are usually tempered blue. This is done after hardening the steel (heating to red hot and quenching in cold water or oil to harden the steel) but it's left brittle from hardening, so it will need to be tempered to take the brittleness out of the steel.
For steel screws on instruments (except stainless steel ones), it's mainly a cosmetic thing to blue steel screws and it will also go some way in preventing them from rusting. There are chemicals that will turn steel blue and you can always colour in stainless steel screw heads with a blue marker pen if you want a colour match if you want things to all look uniform.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-07-23 00:47
Chris,
Thanks a lot for such detailed instructions!
For this particular instrument, if it plays well, I will just keep it as a spare/back-up, and sell my current back-up so its cosmetics would not matter much. I will be replacing all the pivot screws and they are very unlikely to rust- I keep my instrument in my bedroom, not in a basement/garage/etc.
I may just try blueing one screw over the flame of the gas stove (which is blue), and see it it works. IF it does, then I will do all 9.
I do have a torch, but it is the one used by plumbers. Our gas stove does produce blue flame.
Again,
Thanks
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-07-23 17:13
I just checked the thread on an older R13 with proper, full length threaded point screws (not those stupid things with the plastic collar and hardly any thread) and it's an M2x0.35 thread.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2023-07-24 08:27
M2x0.35mm is one of those rare sizes that exist but extremely hard to find. Took me ages to find a die for it.
I'm also convinced that in the past at least some of the M2x0.35mm threads, even on European made instruments, are enlarged or reduced 1-64TPI and 2-64TPI respectively.
Although I know Buffet had an actual metric M2.1x0.35mm size for some of their screws.
Edit: I just got an older R13 with the regular screws without plastic sleeves. They are M2x0.4mm, but this one is nowhere near as old as the OP one.
Post Edited (2023-07-24 13:17)
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-07-24 09:22
I only checked screw fit on one key- waiting for pads to come to start working on it. I mean the screws I got from Ferree's.
The leather stepped pads I ordered from Ferree's are on back order...they do not know when they get them.
Wonder if Valentino Master pads would be a good choice- I never used them.
I did use Valentino Greenback pads and did not like the sound/feel of the clarinet. One thing was good about them- they were easy to install and sealed fine.
Post Edited (2023-07-24 09:24)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-07-24 15:46
Pad orders are all up in the air at the moment. Howarth had been waiting for an order since November and only got them through last week. I've been waiting for pads as well and have absolutely no idea when they'll arrive and because of that, I've had to put sax overhauls on hold until normality resumes. I'm not going to put my neck on the line and compromise myself by sourcing cheap, low quality pads as that'll only bite me on the arse if they're not up to the task, so I'll just have to wait and put customers on hold in the interim.
Glotin/CLG and Martin Chanu no longer supply pads which were my go-to leather pads for oboes and clarinets (and the same ones Howarth used), so it's a case of waiting for Pisoni to catch up with the backlog - I can only assume they're prioritising large volume makers like Buffet, then smaller companies like Howarth have to wait and then independent repairers like myself and others are at the back of the queue.
I do still have some sets of Pisoni Pro CLS synthetic pads which I've been using as standard on clarinet overhauls, but found the white ones will show up the staining from the wood and the dye Buffet use to make the wood look uniform on their clarinet models below Prestige level ones.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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