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 Do perfectly parrallel closing pads pop?
Author: spikey1973 
Date:   2023-06-19 19:34

Oke this might be a silly question and the reason for asking is more theoretical then practical, as it will be an unlikely goal for me to actually reach, never the less the question poped in my mind.

Anyway this question is also specifically aimed at those of you who work on clarinets professionally or at least very frequently.

I have been looking and reading on replacing pads.

And ofcourse the topic of perfect pad close is a common topic. But this got me to wonder, when you create the "perfect" pad closure.

And what I mean with this is the following. When the pad touches the tone hole's edge's circumference perfectly parrallel all over the pad even before the entirety of spring pressure is on the pad. Is that an actual aim / wanted?
I ask as I heard some one commenting on a pop sound upon closure / opening and he was speaking about it like that, that was the ultimate goal to reach.

But this made me wonder, is that true though.. 'cause if there is indeed a (small) "pop", that seems rather undesirable to me. In which case, would the true aim be to get it as close as possible to perfect, but just not absolutely perfect, So this theoretical air doesn't get "trapped" on the edge of the tone hole and has an escape route, so no pop..

And yeah I am probably overthinking this, but lets see it as a thought experiment ;)

kind greats

Matthieu

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 Re: Do perfectly parrallel closing pads pop?
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2023-06-19 19:53

Yes, you want a perfect contact


No, there is no pop


You may be thinking of some recording artifices where the note to note sound is rather abrupt. These are of two types. Some harder pads such as cork or Kraus Omni pads can make a slight percussive sound as they come down. There are also some players who have a bold sound to begin with, use a heavy handed approach to putting down keys and fingers that lends a hard edge to the transition from note to note. Of course I recall being told as a young student that the goal was to play in such a way as to hear a pop from note to note. Keith Stein and others say that particularly in legato play, you make your fingers move slowly up and down to allow the note transitions to be smooth.




However


Mechanically, you need the accuracy of the “perfect” contact for all pads and nothing less. Everything else is technique.


Let me amend that to say when you just have the clarinet in your hand, if you listen closely when you slam down a key, you can actually hear the note


…………Paul Aviles



Post Edited (2023-06-19 20:21)

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 Re: Do perfectly parrallel closing pads pop?
Author: Chris P 
Date:   2023-06-19 21:33

Any open tonehole closed by either a finger or by a (perfectly seated) pad will cause the bore on any woodwind instrument to resonate to some degree depending on how quickly or firmly you close that tonehole. You'll hear it far more pronounced on flutes and saxes.

You'll notice that more when closing each tonehole in turn when not playing the instrument or when playing very quietly. If your clarinet doesn't make that sound when closing toneholes/keys alone, then you've got a leak somewhere - either the affected pad or tonehole is damaged, ill-fitted or porous.

Think of it like those playground percussion instruments that are a series of tuned plastic pipes open at both ends that are played with rubber coated paddles, or a similar but more compact instrument made out of PVC pipes arranged in piano keyboard fashion and played in the same way - that's effectively what you're doing when closing a tonehole on any woodwind instrument to any degree, or slapping the mouthpiece on a brass instrument with your hand (which you shouldn't do unless you have a stuck mouthpiece puller to hand).

Chris.

Post Edited (2023-06-21 18:47)

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 Re: Do perfectly parrallel closing pads pop?
Author: Julian ibiza 
Date:   2023-06-20 18:50


Bass clarinets are pretty good poppers, but the little bucket they come with only holds enough for about 10 to15 minutes of movie viewing .

Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853

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 Re: Do perfectly parrallel closing pads pop?
Author: spikey1973 
Date:   2023-06-20 23:28

Hey Paul, Chris and Julian..

Thank you much for your answers. This makes the approach a bit easier to asses..
Much appreciated

Kind greats

Matthieu.

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 Re: Do perfectly parrallel closing pads pop?
Author: Julian ibiza 
Date:   2023-06-21 11:10


Hi Matthieu ,

I imagine that what you saw was a demonstration of how when I pad closes properly, it will make a "pop" when banged down .( And the bigger the pad...the bigger the pop .)

This is something that would only be a problem for people who go around slamming doors , so it's therefor not considered a significant physics issue with the instrument itself . A door that's twisted will also bang less....but who wants twisted , drafty doors ?

Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853

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 Re: Do perfectly parrallel closing pads pop?
Author: donald 
Date:   2023-07-14 07:27

The former Principal clarinet of the APO (and music director/conductor of Auckland Chamber Orchestra) Peter Scholes many years back had his clarinets repaded by Gordon Palmer (who used to post here before he passed away) using these very hard rubber pads on the bottom keys.
- they sealed amazingly, though with very little "forgiveness". The seal was so good that the slightest bit of moisture on the pad made the E/B and F/C keys stick DOWN for a second before lifting up (Peter had got Gordon to set the springs very light).
Despite this perfect seal, they didn't make noticeably more "pop" when being closed.
The POP can also be a result of how fast you are moving the fingers (their speed of motion, not the frequency of notes). Bonnade, for instance, would have exercises to get his students to control the ascent/descent of the fingers, and get them at a speed that would get a clean start to the note WITHOUT a pop sound.

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 Re: Do perfectly parrallel closing pads pop?
Author: spikey1973 
Date:   2023-07-14 13:19

@ Donald..

thank you for this input! informative!

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 Re: Do perfectly parrallel closing pads pop?
Author: lydian 
Date:   2023-07-14 18:34

If you want pop, get a bass clarinet or a saxophone. Then you can annoy your bandmates to your heart’s content.

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 Re: Do perfectly parrallel closing pads pop?
Author: spikey1973 
Date:   2023-07-15 23:33

@ Lydian,

How can you interpret anything I wrote here as me 'wanting' a pop?

kind greats

Matthieu

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 Re: Do perfectly parrallel closing pads pop?
Author: lydian 
Date:   2023-07-16 00:32

Words like aim, goal and want.

But I was only joking, providing an example of an instrument whose pads definitely pop. The pop on soprano clarinet is barely audible.

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