 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: kerryklari
Date: 2023-06-05 21:56
I recently bought a bass clarinet. I'm playing it seated, propped up on its peg (I have bad back issues and would not be able to stand and play it). I found some useful teaching materials on Edward Palanker's "eddies clarinet" website. He suggests that, with older models that don't go down to low C and tend to have a more gentle angle on the last bend of the neck, it's best to lean into the mouthpiece a little to get the best angle for playing. I do find that this works quite well except that it makes the throat notes very difficult. Playing open G, the instrument tends to fall away from me, and I end up virtually gripping it by the mouthpiece. Playing F# (it's a German instrument so this is thumb only, but the problem would be the same playing F on a Boehm instrument) is even worse as I'm pushing it away, and going from either of those notes to A is a bit wobbly because I don't have much of a grip on the instrument.
I've got a neck strap and I can use that to stop this, but I have to have the strap really quite tight and that is (a) a bit uncomfortable on my neck sometimes, and (b) not great because I actually can't take the mouthpiece out of my mouth unless I twist away from it.
I can stop it happening by holding down the 2nd or 3rd finger of my right hand, as this stabilizes things and doesn't make an appreciable difference to the sound quality or pitch, but I'm not sure if this is a good idea or will just confuse things.
I feel that if the thumb rest was more like the sort of thing a tenor sax has, ie it hooked over my thumb, that might solve the problem, but the rest is the usual clarinet thing - flat with a bit of cork on it that doesn't provide enough friction to do anything to stop the falling.
Does anyone have any suggestions? I'm presumably not the first person to encounter this problem.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-06-05 22:20
Seated is the standard position though kids in marching band carry them. I would suggest getting a better strap. There are tenor sax straps that have a lot of neck padding and use a double cord system that is super fast to tighten and release. If you have slow easy material to play, winging it without a strap is doable but for anything remotely challenging I’d find a better strap.
………..Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2023-06-05 22:57
I've found the same problem with my 1950s Leblanc Eb bass. Making matters worse, the thumb rest is in a really uncomfortable place that for me makes RH E/B and F#/C# virtually unreachable. I have to take my thumb off the instrument or rest it above the thumb rest. The straps I've used allow a lot of sideways wobble even if they're wide enough to avoid stress on my neck. A combination of strap and peg gives more stability but not, as you describe, with the throat notes. Holding the clarinet still with unused fingers causes technical awkwardness if I need those fingers on a subsequent note in a technical passage.
One thing I have been able to do with practice and a great deal of care is grip the bell between my calves (if I cross my ankles). I have to be really careful not to close any open pads, especially the ones on the end of the clarinet body (E/B and F/C) and the Eb pad on the bell itself. It does take a little time and some attention to get my legs and the peg in exactly the right positions, or going over the break produces some interesting results caused by closed keys.
Another thing I've been able to do with certain bass clarinet/bassoon stands is play with the instrument on its stand.
Karl
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-06-06 00:26
kdk wrote:
> I've found the same problem with my 1950s Leblanc Eb bass.
> Making matters worse, the thumb rest is in a really
> uncomfortable place that for me makes RH E/B and F#/C#
> virtually unreachable. I have to take my thumb off the
> instrument or rest it above the thumb rest. The straps I've
> used allow a lot of sideways wobble even if they're wide enough
> to avoid stress on my neck. A combination of strap and peg
> gives more stability but not, as you describe, with the throat
> notes. Holding the clarinet still with unused fingers causes
> technical awkwardness if I need those fingers on a subsequent
> note in a technical passage...
> Karl
Is it possible to relocate the thumb rest like it is often done on soprano clarinets?
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2023-06-06 01:12
m1964 wrote:
> Is it possible to relocate the thumb rest like it is often done
> on soprano clarinets?
>
Sure, I suppose it is. I have taken the thumb rest completely off, leaving my thumb free to go where it needs to go. But that wouldn't solve the problems kerryklari is describing - the insecurity of trying to keep the instrument under control when playing throat notes like G# and A.
I probably shouldn't have included the comments about the thumb rest position, which is one of *my* problems, not kerryklari's, but the original post mentioned the possibility that a thumb rest with more wrap around the thumb might help (I suspect it wouldn't).
Karl
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2023-06-06 01:27
Kerryklari,
I have had great success for your type of problem by using not only a floor peg but a very neat (colors available) strap. It is the Drapkin Bass Clarinet Strap. This may work for you.
https://www.bassclarinet.net/product/strap/
The strap is so comfortable, you never realize that you are wearing it and along with the peg everything is rock solid. However, I did change the instrument hook to a snap hook.
HRL
PS I have no interest in Drapkin's business. I am just a satisfied customer.
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Author: super20dan
Date: 2023-06-06 02:35
i solved the angle -mpc issue by buying a chas bay improved angle neck-solved every problem. sadly they are pretty hard to come by now. its easy the best $ i ever spent. completly changes your bass playing experience -for the better! i actually bought an entire leblanc bass just to get the neck! . still 600$ well spent!
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Author: kilo
Date: 2023-06-06 12:44
Both my Selmer 30 and my Royal Max have two strap rings and I use a double hooked strap for both of them. By adjusting the upper hook I can bring the mouthpiece securely into playing position and the two hooks form a very stable triangular configuration with my neck as the apex. I'm surprised more basses don't have this feature; the two hooks offer much more stability than the single one on my old Yamaha.
Post Edited (2023-06-06 14:15)
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Author: kerryklari
Date: 2023-06-06 13:46
Thanks everyone - I will explore the strap options.
Hank_Lehrer: the Drapkin strap does indeed look like it would be comfortable. I'm in Europe so adding postage and import costs would probably more than double the price, but it does give me an idea of what to look for.
super20dan: I looked the Bay neck up and I can see it's a much steeper angle which would probably completely solve the problem. However, my bass is a rather unusual instrument and I don't think it would be possible to exchange any of the parts. The neck has the register vent key on it so tha Bay one wouldn't work even if it fitted. Pity!
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2023-06-06 16:19
You can investigate getting a custom made 3D printed neck.
https://jdwoodwind.com/
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
Post Edited (2023-06-06 16:19)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2023-06-06 16:24
Kerry,
I'd email Drapkin and find out. I have always found him to be very responsive to any inquiry.
Good luck,
HRL
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Author: kerryklari
Date: 2023-06-06 17:33
Mojo: wow, thank you for that info - it will probably have to wait but good to know about. In fact, the thing that worries me most about the instrument is the non-replacability of the mouthpiece so it's good to know that if I ever break it I could have a new one made.
Hank: thanks, I might do that. I have a friend who travels to US on business quite a lot so I'm thinking of getting him to get one for me next time he's there.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-06-06 19:06
In regards the problem of holding the bass comfortably towards the body in a sitting position , I'm thinking of one of the more sturdy " around the arms and down the sternum " type saxophone harnesses' , although as I see it ,it would need the attachment position lowered to around sternum height and maybe best replaced with elastic cord which can then hold the bass into the body but also allow some distance flexibility.
These harnesses are designed for standing with an instrument, so the cord tends to come down from collarbone height . Rest the weight of the horn on anything however and it will fall away from the body . This " sitting with bass" problem presnts different physics issues than that of a strap or harness designed for standing .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: senexclarinetta
Date: 2023-06-06 20:35
I've been playing bass clarinet about two months, and I had a similar problem. Playing F felt like I was going to spit out the mouthpiece. For me, just more practice helped -- figuring out the height, the embouchure, and so forth -- but a neckstrap might not be a bad idea, either!
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2023-06-07 00:16
>> it's best to lean into the mouthpiece a little to get the best angle for playing. I do find that this works quite well <<
It might be implied by the fact you are doing it, but you haven't actually said that this works better than having the instrument more vertical... does it? Do you have problems with the mouthpiece angle if it's more vertical? Some bass clarinetists (and not just saxophonists who are doublers) play that way with the shallower angle neck and it's fine (even preferable).
>> I looked the Bay neck up and I can see it's a much steeper angle which would probably completely solve the problem. However, my bass is a rather unusual instrument and I don't think it would be possible to exchange any of the parts. The neck has the register vent key on it so tha Bay one wouldn't work even if it fitted <<
From photos I've seen it looked like the Bay necks are simply the same necks as original but with the mouthpiece tenon soldered at a different angle (often with the end of the neck cut to fit that angle). I've seen those for Leblanc and Selmer (the latter with the register key on it) but they were just Leblanc and Selmer necks. If there are custom made Bay bass clarinet necks that actually have a steeper curve and not just the socket soldered differently, it's possible, but I haven't seen any.
Maybe check with Gloger, he is in The Netherlands and makes custom necks. He might be able to make a neck with a steeper angle specific to your instrument (he might need to have it), or if it's a tunable neck, even simpler to make just the end part (much cheaper than a whole neck).
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Author: super20dan
Date: 2023-06-07 01:38
the early bay necks were just stock necks modified but later he made entire necks that look much less home made . i have 2 one leblanc and one believe it or not made for a bundy! before i got the bay necks -i used a neck strap and the floor peg at the same time
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-06-07 06:01
That was an interesting statement.
I always assumed (and did) use the floor peg and a neck strap at the same time. There really is no way to avoid the instability of "no finger" notes any other way. And honestly, the peg is just for height.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2023-06-07 07:37
>> I always assumed (and did) use the floor peg and a neck strap at the same time. There really is no way to avoid the instability of "no finger" notes any other way. And honestly, the peg is just for height. <<
This depends entirely on the neck to clarinet angle and the angle you want the mouthpiece to come towards you. Most players who use more recent models (and a lot of less recent models like Selmer 35/37 and anything that abotu that same angle) don't use a strap when sitting.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-06-07 10:00
While I imagine that changing the neck offers the best solution, using a simple neck strap but attached to a lashing around the band at the top joint might work well . Something like flat shoelace anchored with a spot or two of hot glue .
It's not for carrying the weight of the instrument after all ,but this should offer a more effective ange of the stap to the instrument to counter the forces involved.
Just a thought !
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-06-07 10:14
Ps.
Well!.....on second thoughts that connection point would tend to fall foul with the neck register linkage .....could probably still be done ....but a bit problematic .
Ho-hum !
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-06-07 12:08
However....if a neck strap to this upper point would in fact work well, then one could simply fit a band of adhesive Velcro tape around the top band and use a simple continuous loop neck strap . It would need to be narrower where it goes around the instrument and have its correstonding point of Velcro but it would naturally pass either side of the register linkage and could have a simple Velcro length adjustment too . Just sit down ...drop the strap on your neck over the neck and fastest it . It's not something that needs to withstand any real strain .
I don't know how well it would work, but it's an idea that would be easy and cheap to try. A simple cloth loop held in place with a bit of tape would determine if it indeed does the job .
I suspect that if the neck is really too extended for comfort , then playing around with the pag length and increasing its distance from the body to avoid the bass leaning away , may result in an extending of the arms which sounds a bit like a recipe for increased shoulder , neck and back tension issues .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: cearnsh
Date: 2023-06-07 17:16
My 'main' bass is a Buffet Prestige with a nicely angled neck which fortunately avoids this issue. I also have an old Vito bass for use at outdoor or otherwise less secure gigs. This has the nearly horizontal style of neck and I have to play this with instrument leaning away from me at the top. Two reasons for this position - I have problems with my own neck which means that I need to play with my head tilted slightly down, and my clarinet embouchure just doesn't work with an almost horizontal mouthpiece (though it's no problem on tenor sax, don't ask me why!).
Over the years I've learned to support the Vito for the short left-hand notes by resting the middle joints of one or more right-hand fingers against the pivot rod on the lower joint, and/or the left-hand little finger against the instrument body just above the pinky keys. It takes a bit of practice, but it should be possible to find a way support the instrument quite securely without having to resort to a neck strap.
Chris
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Author: Max S-D
Date: 2023-06-08 10:27
On basses with flatter neck angles, I usually prefer the "belt and suspenders" approach of using a neck strap and peg. It does mean I have to move my head away from the instrument to take the mouthpiece out of my mouth, but you learn that movement quickly.
I found that that gave me a lot more facility on my Bundy. My Selmer 33 came with a slightly better neck angle, but when I got a 3D printed (half) neck from Jared De Leon at JD woodwinds, I chose his steeper-angled option and it's been much more comfortable for this exact reason.
If you prefer a more clarinet-like angle, it's either use a neck strap or get a custom neck. The neck strap is quite a bit cheaper! BG makes a good enough double hook strap, but anything that will fit in the strap hooks should be fine since it won't be supporting much weight at all.
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Author: kilo
Date: 2023-06-08 12:56
Quote:
It's not for carrying the weight of the instrument after all ,but this should offer a more effective ange of the stap to the instrument to counter the forces involved.
This is exactly why I like the instruments which provide two hook rings and the neck straps which use two hooks. The "three point hitch" provides stability – enough to use it standing without a floor peg without pivoting on a single ring placed in the middle of the instrument. And even enough to play it sitting without a floor peg (on low Eb models) if you had to.
Of course, if the neck angle eliminates the need for a strap at all, so much the better, but I really have no issues with the two-hook configuration. It's effective and I assume it was done for a reason.
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