 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2023-06-01 20:58
This opinion post was inspired by the prior one on Mopane wood. Apologies for its length.
Grenadilla is becoming scarcer. At least on that we can agree. Wood instrument manufacturers are trying to find substitute woods, some of which like box- and rosewood have reputations for greater dimensional instability than grenadilla.
What follows I suspect will earn its share of dissenters, perhaps justifiably so.
Still more, if you subscribe to Tom Ridenour's grenadilla myth (disclosure and conflict of interest stated: a predominately hard rubber clarinet maker today) you believe that grenadilla was originally chosen for instrument creation not so much because of its beautiful sound qualities but because it was more reliable (i.e. less costly) for manufacturers to machine than other materials, resulting in less pieces that would catastrophically fail when lathed—all mind you before the advent of plastics in consumer goods post World War II.
Let me rephrase that. It's not so much that grenadilla ISN'T capable of becoming a wonderful sounding instrument, rather, the idea that other materials might not as well create beautiful sounding instruments is a bit of a misnomer I submit. Hard rubber, and plastics (including acrylics) are some of the materials that come to mind as substitutes. I have a golden era R13, and no financial “horse in this race.”
As plastics began to emerge in consumer products in the 60s they developed a reputation for being a poor person's substitute for the real thing and less expensive. And many of those plastic goods were less than high quality, in addition to being put into mass produced designs that themselves were knockoff substitutes for wood, fabric, and glass. No less so was this the case for beginner musical instruments, where cost was kept down by both the relatively inexpensive cost of the plastic material, and perhaps more so the lack of craftsmanship in such mass produced items. The marketplace, including if not especially that for musical instruments has come to associate plastic with inferior quality.
But I submit that this need not be the case. The lack of “greenness” of plastic production notwithstanding in its hydrocarbon origins, I think the material, and its potential for dimensional stability may get a bad rap and needs a second look in this ever scarcer grenadilla world.
Were comparable craftsmanship put into plastic instruments I suspect it could lead to some wonderful sounding and playing (and lasting) instruments. Buffet's Green Line offerings, which are essentially epoxy mixed with grenadilla wood shavings from grenadilla clarinet production: shavings that use to literally heat Buffet's factory: well, if that isn't a plastic instrument then its only because of some organic chemistry definition.
Even for those who believe, I might argue falsely, that grenadilla has some magical acoustical properties, mashing it up into shavings and binding it with epoxy certainly can't be a recipe for it maintaining such sound characteristics, can it? And Morrie Backun's Alpha Clarinet, which by the way earns high marks as an entry level instrument, what do you suppose its material description as “Premium Synthetic” might also be known as? I think those who cough the word “plastic” as their response might be on to something.
I must commend Buffet. The Greenline clarinets are marketing brilliance. It answers the question, “how do we introduce a plastic clarinet when we've for years expounded ever scarcer wood to be the superior material, all while making use of all this scrap grenadilla from our conventional production line, when countless other and cheaper woods exists to run our factory's heating plant in Winter?”
It is possible that wood instruments dominated in part because the more expensive cost of machining them over plastic was more than made up for in the higher prices and cache consumers would pay for them? Is it possible that for manufacturers to introduce a high end plastic instrument today might have people unwilling to pay its price given their association of the material with cheapness in price and quality? It is possible that an amazing instrument made of such material today might have owners wondering if manufacturer profit was more important all these years than value?
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Author: kilo
Date: 2023-06-01 21:13
I'm in general agreement with the case you are making here. I think, however, that it's good to maintain a distinction between instruments made purely of plastic and composites which use fillers mixed with plastic resins.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-06-01 21:18
Some good points.
However, I am afraid that in the realm of a well made instrument requiring lots of skilled man hours.......fine tuning so that 12ths work and such.......the cost is in the skilled labor NOT the material. I would be willing to spend $10,000 on a beautifully made, well in tune plastic clarinet, but it sounds like that is not what you have in mind.
The "brave new future" may be our savior on this score. 3D printing not only allows for NEW and more complex internal dimensions and shapes, it is replicable to the Nth degree. Once we have an amazing set of dimensions that represents "perfection" and a process to finish (there is always going to be finishing I'm afraid) that is also cost effective, we will be able to crank out perfect clarinets with incredible efficiency both of cost and acoustic excellence.
By the way, the United States military had designated Greenline instruments as plastic for decades. They buy them to provide instruments to service members to use in extreme cold, extreme heat and in wet weather conditions. I'll quote from the movie "Contact" regarding government spending, "Why buy one when you can buy two for twice the price?"
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-06-01 21:56
Hi SecondTry,
Thank you for such a thought provoking post. It's really made me think a lot.
I totally get what you mean about it being possible to make a really good plastic clarinet. Might even be lighter and smaller in diameter, which I would really like.
Were you thinking it would be good to move away from Grendilla wood, in order to preserve the forests, and help climate change? I wasn't sure if that was where you were going with it, or if you were purely thinking about the quality of the instruments.
I like Yamaha's idea of moving to farmed Grendilla wood, with fair pay for the farmers.
https://www.yamaha.com/en/csr/feature/feature_04/
I kind of assumed that we would lose plastic in time, because of fossil fuels having to be phased out to fix climate change.
Jen
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-06-01 22:02
Hi Paul,
I see what you mean about 3D printing. But won't we also want the materials scientists to come up with a non-fossil fuel plastic that can be printed to a high degree of accuracy, and is biodegradable?
I think we may be some way way from that.
My feeling, as a 3D printer owner, and shameless tree enthusiast, is that farmed wood may be still the best option.
Also in all these discussions, I can hear you all silently wishing so very much that wooden clarinets might be still okay, because we all love them so much. I do really think that they might be the best option for climate as well as everything else.
I haven't seen the numbers on CO2 generation for the various options. I wonder where we could find those numbers?
I mean CO2 generated on plastic v 3D print v farmed Grenadilla wood?
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-06-01 22:05
I would also really like to see the CO2 footprint of synthetic v cane reeds, as the same argument runs there.
I mean might it actually be a positive thing that people can make money by growing massive reed farms, with all the CO2 capture that that entails? I haven't seen the numbers, but my guess is that cane reeds are actually good for halting climate change.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-06-01 22:35
SecondTry,
I like that you've raised this question
I think that everybody tends to have their head up their Grenadillas a bit on the matter of what a clarinet should be made of .When Tom Ridenour got into hard rubber , apparently he believed that by today wood would basically be a thing of the past , hard rubber being eminently better in his view .He also said that sound quality in design comes down largely to knowing the material you are using and working with it .
Leslie Craven told me that during his last ten years or so as first clarinet for the National Welsh Opera ( he's now retired) , he played all Ridenour horns just because he loved their tone, response and great tuning and I believe that there are quite a number of eminent musicians who now favor the Libertas over any Grenalla equivalent.
This is hard rubber not plastic , but the point is that materials other than Grenadilla CAN be high performers which means that Grenadilla is not the magical ingredient.There are quite a few musicians out there that don't believe that the material an instrument is made of is central to its tone quality, but that this comes down to other things .
Grenadilla can crack , and it's going to start cracking more and more as the increasing scarcity of this wood results in compromised quality selection for woodwind manufacturing. This probably means that if you now buy a Mopane horn , it will be made with a better piece of wood than its Grenadilla counterpart. Perhaps you won't be that sorry soul with the cracked horn .
But as SecondTry pointed out , why not just reach for the Greenline ...or one of the other non wood instruments . No cracking ,no blow-out , no environmental bad conscience.
Tom Ridenour is not a maverick. He's a clever common sense man of the times in an age marked by similar people . But he appears as something of a maverick because he's worked in a conservatively minded field .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-06-01 23:37
Julian - Does hard rubber also come out of a tree? That seems good.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2023-06-01 23:46
>
>
> However, I am afraid that in the realm of a well made
> instrument requiring lots of skilled man hours.......fine
> tuning so that 12ths work and such.......the cost is in the
> skilled labor NOT the material. I would be willing to spend
> $10,000 on a beautifully made, well in tune plastic clarinet,
> but it sounds like that is not what you have in mind.
>
Hi Paul:
Thank you for your informed points as always. For the record, whether I could personally afford it or not, it would make me happy to see a well received/reviewed stable long lasting clarinet made of something other than wood, such as plastic, (my desire for greenness notwithstanding) in which its relatively high cost like that you cite was justified by things like the specialty of the plastic for acoustical or stability properties, the color, pitch and shape of its tone, and its workmanship/reliability. 
What I wonder about isn't whether such a thing could be made, but the backlash of consumers that might justifiably say, "you mean Buffet, et. al., all these years you could have made a great plastic instrument but instead helped make grenadilla all but extinct because you could sell instruments made of it at a higher markup than its cost to produce, that an even less expensive to produce, potentially greater dimensionally stable, extremely high quality plastic model?"
:)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-06-02 00:05
I think it's probably better not to worry about what happened in the past, but to concentrate really hard on getting the future right, if we can.
I think in the past there were a lot of things that we didn't know, but we do know now, so we can do our best to make things right.
I think if we can figure out what is the great clarinet material, both for climate and sound, then that is really important work, because people do come to this forum for advice on what to buy.
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Author: Hugues Fardao
Date: 2023-06-02 00:32
There used to be metal clarinet. in 1927, Selmer Paris stated that the metal clarinets would replace the wooden ones like it happened to flutes. Plastic and metal prevent cracks, can be recycle for the most part, why not let down the wood.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-06-02 01:06
I just read an article in the financial times about how we can assess the climate credentials of different companies.
It says that at the moment carbon dioxide emissions reporting is just not rigorous enough. Companies have to report their finances in great detail, but not yet their carbon emissions.
Apparently what we need to look for first is the good emissions reporting and then we will be able to assess which companies are producing products that are good for the climate.
The article is called "Why carbon emissions reports need handling with care. . ."
It's behind a paywall, but this is it:
https://www.ft.com/content/37ac4900-a0d8-4e82-9850-ba4a5ad3ac6d
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-06-02 10:26
SecondTry,
I think that to understand the Buffet product is to consider the characteristic French mind . The French love their traditional values and are very focused on celebrating , perfecting and basically turning them into works of art as much as possible . It's something that reigns throughout pretty much every corner of Paris . This is something truly remarkable but it's not by its nature akin to the progressive mind . That would be people like Tom Ridenour who has spent his life urging people to try something new . Perhapse something about the clarinet embouchure makes us all become a little French ...Ha-ha !
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: kdk
Date: 2023-06-02 21:27
Why did the orchestral flute market turn *from* wood (I'm assuming from the old flutes' appearance grenadilla) to metal? I have always understood from anecdotal stories that metal was potentially louder and would carry better in large orchestras and large concert halls. But clarinets made of metal are now dinosaurs that are found mostly on E-bay. Metal was replaced for student clarinets shortly after WW II by plastic. But back in the mid-20th century, when I was growing up, SecondTry's assessment is correct - plastic was considered adequate for a student, but good player needed a good clarinet - i.e. one made of wood, which back then meant grenadilla.
So, if flutes - even in the top orchestras - could make the opposite jump *away* from wood, I don't see a reason why clarinetists can't make a similar leap away from an endangered material that takes decades to replace (wood) to a material that can be manufactured at a scale to meet the demand.
I do worry in general about finding new uses for petroleum-based materials. Apart from the disposal problem, there are the forecasts that the supply of petroleum is finite and liable to run out within most of our lifetimes. But there might be a great future for instruments made of materials produced from plants that can be farmed and replaced in a matter of a year or two. The problem may be that someone would need to be financially equipped to do this kind of research.
Karl
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-06-02 22:17
Hi Karl,
I think you're absolutely right about funding for the research being the sticking point. In botany there are always oodles of really simple questions that have never been answered, just because they are never top of the pile to receive the funding. There is always more pressing medical research to be done, and that's where the money goes.
I think though, that by having us all here discussing stuff online, we are actually part of that much-needed research. We are actively testing the products and demanding climate-friendly products, and that is hugely important in driving change. I think it's really brilliant that we're doing this.
Your thought about faster-growing tree sources reminds me of Olivier Patey switching to box wood. I wonder how that went, and whether that would be a better option for reversing climate change?
I do very much feel that clarinet playing is inherently a climate friendly activity. I mean the clarinet doesn't need a battery charged, and it's a very peaceful activity. As far as the big picture is concerned, I think we're really in a good place.
Jennifer
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Author: kdk
Date: 2023-06-02 22:35
SunnyDaze wrote:
> Your thought about faster-growing tree sources reminds me of
> Olivier Patey switching to box wood. I wonder how that went,
> and whether that would be a better option for reversing climate
> change?
I wasn't even thinking of faster-growing trees. Bamboo, for example, is woody, invasive to the point that you have to put barriers in the ground to block its roots from spreading, and grows at a rate you can almost watch (I guess it's like watching grass grow, which is what cane plants are). Some kind of plastic-like material made of plant fibers of almost any kind would solve many problems at once. It would take some kind of process, which is what the research would have to develop. I have no practical idea of what would need to be done to make a material made of plant fibers dense enough to be machined, but there must *be* a way, ultimately without resorting to mineral-based resins.
Karl
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-06-02 23:21
Hi Karl,
I think that metal was considered to be complimentary to the sound of the flute.
So I guess that this discussion is really about what materials other than Grenadilla might be complimentary to the sound of the clarinet, which rather begs the question ....How much of the tone of Grenadilla is intrinsically unique to this material ?...And how much is down to densities and frequency responses that can be equally achieved using composites , plastics , hard rubber etc.?Grenadilla was not chosen by manufacturers from a range of tone woods . It was chosen from very few options of woods that won't split like a carrot . It's likely that its accidental tone qualities have become our "Grandma's cooking " reference , which is fine . We come to like what we come to like and that's just what it is .
If string instruments could no longer be made of wood, I think that that would be a woeful day ,because here, some very unique characteristics unique to wood, play a roll for which we as yet have no substitute, but I don't believe that the same can reasonably be said for woodwind .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-06-03 00:24
And then there is Spruce for piano soundboards.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk
Date: 2023-06-03 00:31
Julian ibiza wrote:
> We come to
> like what we come to like and that's just what it is .
>
I think this statement is the crux of it - we've just gotten used to a sound. But how much of that sound is grenadilla and how much is acoustical engineering will only be clear once other materials are developed and tried.
> If string instruments could no longer be made of wood, I think
> that that would be a woeful day ,because here, some very unique
> characteristics unique to wood, play a roll for which we as yet
> have no substitute, but I don't believe that the same can
> reasonably be said for woodwind .
>
Oh, I don't know. What are the unique characteristics that couldn't be reproduced synthetically?
Karl
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2023-06-03 01:02
Well, I guess I'll go ahead and dip my toe into the water...
Though this topic has been thoroughly discussed (over and over) in the past, I do enjoy new versions of the theme because different posters post in the contemporary thread and the thread goes in different directions than earlier threads went.
By now everyone probably knows I don't believe the material of a clarinet body makes any important difference. (When the www was young, there were plenty of blind listening tests online to help drive this point home.)
However, since this thread went somewhat the route of environmental impact - I think there is an important point to be made: One of the best ways to avoid impact on the environment is reuse of the perfectly fine clarinets which already exist.
Closets around the world are overflowing with professional models of clarinets which no longer meet the stringent requirements of today's hobbyist/amateur clarinetist. No, we must have "new" professional clarinets with improved intonation. (The mice in the closet care greatly about balanced tuning.)
The pressure to buy new "professional" clarinets is too great. The fact that most folks who learn to play clarinet will never even be able to achieve mastery of a student instrument seems to have no bearing on the purchaser, the student, or many times - the instructor. If not a new "professional" model - then a new (top-of-the-line...wood) student model!
Whether brass/metal, plastic, hard rubber, wood, etc. doesn't really impress me as having near the impact on the environment as does the sheer volume of wasted materials already used as clarinets - but snubbed as "not being good enough for me" when folks decide to learn clarinet.
If the clarinet is sealed and functioning properly (and otherwise in average repair)...chances are, it isn't the clarinet itself which is holding a player back.
It seems there are an awful lot of professional clarinets out there, and very few professional clarinetist in relation. I think we do a disservice to the environment (and to potential clarinetists) by perpetuating the idea that professional instruments (or even wood student instruments) are the only avenue for serious players.
Funny thing to me is: Many hobbyist/amateur clarinetists play in venues where the instrument might be exposed to heat, humidity, cold, quick temperature changes, etc. - settings which should bias instrument selection away from wood.
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-06-03 02:32
Well some of that was quite interesting. What I take out of that though is that there is some remorse over individuals who "can" purchase a professional level clarinet over those who need it. I think that for that argument you can look at the larger number of "supporters" as the tax base that allows the professionals to have instruments at discount prices. There are no $4200.00 professional bassoons for example.
So, the environmental argument is the way to go and hopefully the 3D printing material will be made of compostable material. After all I've seen 3D printed usable human organs so that should not be that hard.
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-06-03 09:50
Hi Karl,
I think that string instrument building demands MORE of the unique characteristics found only in wood . You have a good bit of fine grading in soundboards etc, so the structural properties are more prominent than in woodwind where you're making a pretty thick tube out of a Tank like wood. Also the wood plays a leading roll in actually creating the sound , eg. The sound of an unamlified electric guitar string to that of blowing though a mouthpiece with reed .( the string instrument sound box also plays a big roll here too ).
That said , I did once hit on an add for a carbon fiber cello . The add suggested that this was just the thing for playing up on the tops of mountains ....quite a lot of hassle for sucky acoustics ....but hey!...everyone has their thing .... I only hope that they can keep up with the flood of orders .
Hi Fuzzy ,
Very nicely and thoughtfully expressed as always . It reminds me of the kind of observations from Tom Ridenour ,who I admire for his down to earth " reality check" take on things . Apparently all his instruments were designed aimed at what he saw as the real needs of students and the fact that some of them became favored by professionals has pleased him but was never really something he had in mind ( So he claims! )
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-06-03 10:43
Hi Paul,
I think that BOTH the environmental angle AND the pleasing sound quality angle are the way to go . The development of composites may actually be compromised by such things as using Grenadilla dust . This may largely be a marketing gimmick because people are so hung up on the idea of Grenadilla . That the tone qualities of Grenadilla wood survive being ground into dust and then glued back together again smells like complete nonsense to me . Although , as I said somewhere else , the dust may offer density values that are good , but that I image can be equally achieved using other composite recipes based upon a purely scientific approach .
The human mind is also VERY influenced by suggestion , so Grenadilla= Sounds good ! .....but what we are convinced that we hear may well tend to be somewhat biased therefore.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-06-03 11:04
I strongly suspect that the stone in the road here boils down to the fact that manufacturers are naturally reluctant to uphill market and invest in research against existing preconceptions and prejudices typically held by the consumer .
They can only sell us what we will buy .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: kdk
Date: 2023-06-03 21:55
Julian ibiza wrote:
> Hi Karl,
>
> I think that string instrument building demands MORE of the
> unique characteristics found only in wood . You have a good bit
> of fine grading in soundboards etc, so the structural
> properties are more prominent than in woodwind where you're
> making a pretty thick tube out of a Tank like wood.
But if you're using a manufactured product using computer-controlled production techniques, you should be able to avoid the need for all that fine adjustment (isn't that what synthetic reeds are all about?).
> Also the
> wood plays a leading roll in actually creating the sound , eg.
> The sound of an unamlified electric guitar string to that of
> blowing though a mouthpiece with reed .( the string instrument
> sound box also plays a big roll here too ).
>
I'm not sure I understand your analogy of an unamplified electric guitar string to a mouthpiece and reed with no instrument attached. But the role of wood (or any other material) in creating an instrument's unique sound is the fundamental basis of the whole whole debate - what's more important, the material or the design and construction. Acousticians seem to say that material has in itself minimal influence. If that's true of a woodwind, it must be true of a violin as well. Precision production should be able to replace hand adjustment whatever the application.
> That said , I did once hit on an add for a carbon fiber cello
> . The add suggested that this was just the thing for playing up
> on the tops of mountains ....quite a lot of hassle for sucky
> acoustics ....but hey!...everyone has their thing .... I only
> hope that they can keep up with the flood of orders .
>
Carbon fiber and fiberglass are also used in electronically amplified string instruments, which dispense with the hollow box just like an electric guitar. Which broaches a whole other thread about whether acoustic instruments are nearing the end of their use. Even using relatively primitive mics and amps to juice up the volume of conventional acoustical instruments (think almost every pit orchestra and every school jazz band in contemporary America) nullifies a lot of what we consider the nuances of their natural sound. Why not just electrify all of them and make them all out of carbon fiber, fiberglass or some renewable organic material? They won't sound like the instruments of 100 years ago no matter how they're made.
We'll all just have to get used to and learn to like new sounds. To a large extent, with all the use of electronics, we already have.
Karl
Post Edited (2023-06-03 22:40)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-06-03 22:12
I don't get why carbon fibre or plastic whatever would be more environmentally friendly than wood though. Isn't the carbon footprint of that huge?
I mean if we're in a discipline where the absolute ideal is to make something out of wood, aren't we in a pretty top-notch place environmentally? Then we just need to make sure that the trees are grown and harvested in a good way (by not clear felling a whole forest).
It's not even as though the rest of the tree is just thrown away. I mean presumably it can be used for other stuff, just like the other parts of vandoren cane plants are used for other stuff.
A large part of the reason why French cane from the Var region is so successful is because there is a huge chain of other people who use the other parts of the cane plant in a useful and profitable way. Setting that whole chain up in another place like California, is a really big job.
I would really like to see an objective analysis of the carbon footprint of 3D print v carbon fibre v plastic v farmed wood, before we thow away the idea of the wooden clarinet.
Addition: I just found Yamaha's report on sustainability:
https://www.yamaha.com/en/csr/download/pdf/sr_2022_en.pdf
and this is their update on farmed trees:
https://www.yamaha.com/en/csr/feature/feature_14/
Adult learner, Grade 3
Equipment: Yamaha Custom CX Bb, Fobes 10K CF mp,
Legere Bb clarinet European Cut #2.5, Vandoren Optimum German Lig.
Post Edited (2023-06-03 22:25)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-06-03 22:38
https://www.yamaha.com/en/csr/download/pdf/sr_2022_en.pdf
p64-66 are really interesting.
The report says that one of the big risks to production of wooden clarinets is that forest owners are switching from operating in timber sales, to operating as providers of forestry carbon credits for big companies that want to offset their own CO2 producing activities.
If the forest owners do that, then Yamaha can no longer buy wood from them and have to switch to different forest owners, and possibly different kinds of wood. They are lining themselves up to make that switch quickly if needed.
It also says that as the environment heats up, the areas where blackwood grows may shrink, so they are getting ready to switch to different species quickly if needed.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-06-03 23:13
It also says:
The Yamaha Group is developing alternative materials that
can be substituted for scarce timber and adopting sustainable
materials, such as biomass-derived resins, for use in its
products.
(This is not specifically about clarinets, but it does mention marimba sound
board parts.)
There is nothing specifically about the future of Yamaha plastic clarinets.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-06-04 01:09
Hi KdK ,
To answer you very briefly, I was trying to touch on the subject of tone woods in different instruments and their various degrees of protagonisme in the matter tone and volume .
Hi Jen
Indeed you are right that sustainable, plantation grown timber is the way to go .
Even before we use the wood ,it's there absorbing C0 2 and producing oxygen
which is great in itself . It involves a long term investment however...more so for hardwoods that tend to be slow growing . Most of the timber on the market is now plantation grown ,but the problem tends to be that growers chose areas where it grows quickly and this results in lower density , less stable timber that is frequently too poor to be suitable for the things it once was . Having been a woodworker for 40 years I have been made painfully aware of this quality drop problem ,but I accept that we shouldn't be cutting down trees without a replanting policy.
I suspect that the continued cutting of Blackwood trees in Africa is not the product of sound ecological evaluation , but rather the result of economic desperation and short term gain policies . I haven't tried to look into the matter too deeply however because I expect it's rather depressing .
I'm pleased to hear that Yamaha are investing in alternative ecologically friendly/sustainable materials . Yamaha have a great history of being innovative and enterprising with their musical products and forward thinking .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-06-04 01:16
Hi Julian,
Thanks, yes I see what you mean. In the place where I grew up we were by an estuary and there were fences in the water so that wood could be floated there in the brackish water to season. That made it into very good wood.
Now the local area is all planted with close grown conifers that grow like telegraph poles very quickly and are used as pressure treated timber. It is not as good wood.
When we refitted the wooden planks on an old garden bench the new wood did not last nearly as long as the old seasoned wood.
I don't know how long a blackwood tree takes to grow to the point where it can be useful as a clarinet. I will try to find out.
It sounds as though Yamaha are thinking very hard about alternative materials, but more like different woods, rather than plastic or metal.
Jennifer
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-06-04 11:57
Thank you Jen ,
You have touched on the second reason why timber quality on the market today tends to be poor.
The dedication to seasoning isn't what it used to be .
We carpenters are always on the lookout for old timber .
We tend to be like Mel Gibson in Mad Max 2 always looking for the " Gyzoline ".
Ha-ha....Aaaaaarg !
We are scavengers in a post apocalyptic world, trying to make something that will stay that way .
Give the raw facts about raw timbers in today's world.......
WHY NOT PLASTIC / COMPOSITES INDEED ?
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: senexclarinetta
Date: 2023-06-04 21:53
It's mostly path dependence. Grenadilla is hard and stable, which means it is a good material to make something for which dimensional stability is important. It then becomes the wood of choice, which means the top instruments are made out of it. Lower quality instruments are made out of plastic once that's an option because it's cheaper, but they're lower quality due to production choices.
But now it's cemented in the minds of players that good clarinets are made of wood and bad clarinets are made of plastic. If they'd started making the top clarinets out of plastic -- just imagine the ads for a space age R13 -- and beginner Vitos were made of wood, it would be common wisdom that plastic had better resonance due to its stability. I mean, those wooden clarinets are for kids -- don't you know they crack all the time?
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-06-05 09:49
Ha-ha-ha ! ......I like that !
Glad I'm not the only satirist on the forum < phew!>
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-06-05 15:22
In the community where I live, wooden kids toys are considered the posh expensive ones, and the plastic ones are the cheap, throw-away, ones. It's only the rich parents that buy wooden toys.
In my own family we've found that the plastic toys fade and become brittle over time, while the wooden toys can be kept for generations.
The caveat with clarinets is that they get wet, which shortens their livespan. But if we dried them properly and looked after them then I think that would be less of a problem.
Sorry to bang on about it, but I like trees a lot. I think that if people here are prepared to hand over £2500 for what is effectively a 2 foot long wooden stick with holes in it then that's got to be good for the future of forestry.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-06-05 17:07
I've just written to the University Plant Science Department where I volunteer, to ask if it could be an undergraduate research project for someone to work out the actual carbon footprints of the different types of clarinet. I'll write back if that goes anywhere.
I think it would be really brilliant to get an independent assessment of that, to help people make good decisions when buying.
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Author: lydian
Date: 2023-06-05 17:24
I've read that for plastic bottles, 1 pound of plastic can produce 3 pounds of CO2, about the same as burning one incandescent lightbulb for one day. On the other hand driving a car produces about 30 pounds of CO2 per day. So the carbon footprint of any clarinet is miniscule compared to most other things. I wouldn't worry about it. You can make much more of an impact by simply replacing your lights with LEDs, using a reusable shopping bag or cutting down on the plastic bottles you buy.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2023-06-05 20:13
lydian wrote:
> ...cutting down on the plastic bottles
> you buy.
I wish. It's hard to find things in glass bottles these days. ![[frown]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie2.gif)
Karl
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-06-05 20:50
Lydian - I think you are absolutely right, and I totally agree.
I figure that any time we spend sitting about the place, playing a wooden clarinet, then that is time when we are *not* doing something else that would harm the climate. I mean other energy intensive stuff like driving a car, or smelting iron, or whatever other wild stuff we like to do.
As far as I can see, playing a wooden clarinet (from farmed FSC-approved wood) is right up there with using a slide-rule for top-notch environmental credentials. (no batteries, unlikely to cause a war, etc.)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2023-06-05 21:20
kdk wrote:
> I wish. It's hard to find things in glass bottles these days.
>
I still can get Coca-Cola in glass bottles and with cane sugar ... but I live in Mexico :D
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-06-05 22:09
I agree with Lydian that the carbon footprint of a clarinet ,irregardless of what material it's made of ,is probably not an ecological angle worth worrying about too much .
Our day to day consumer habits are bound to deserve more worthy reconsideration , than that of the carbon footprint of buying a given clarinet . The matter of endangered Grenadilla wood strikes me as the salient environmental issue here ,and was , I believe, what was largely behind the posting of this topic and others similar recently .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-06-05 23:50
I just did some digging online and found some proper numbers.
I *think* that all Hanson clarinets are all made from DSC approved wood.
https://hansonclarinets.com/
Not quite sure, but the site seems to imply it.
Yamaha has stats on how many of its wooden instruments (including clarinets) are made from FSC approved wood. I have attached the screenshot of the text which I got from this page:
https://www.yamaha.com/en/csr/feature/feature_14/#:~:text=Based%20on%20this%20realization%2C%20Yamaha,refer%20to%20as%20Tone%20Forests.
The summary is that 99.4% is "low risk" timber - so definitely not obtained by clear felling wild forest. Then 52% is FSC approved wood.
I haven't been able to find out how we can indentify which models are made from FSC approved wood.
I also can't find any reference to Buffet instruments sources of wood.
I can't find any numbers yet on the actual carbon footprint of plastic instruments, or wooden ones for that matter.
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Author: senexclarinetta
Date: 2023-06-06 00:02
Some posh toys are wooden, but LEGOs are ABS plastic and will be passed down. Probably more LEGOs than Buffets. Agreed that clarinets aren't much of a contributor to climate change - the problem seems the other way around, that climate change will affect the wood.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-06-06 10:33
Nice work Jen !
Although I suspect that DSC and FSC approved may not embrace the ecological side as much as one might think . If the governments of African countries declare the cutting of Blackwood trees legal in spite of ecological analysis studies , and importing countries don't legally forbid the import, then this wood still probably gets classed as DSC or FSC approved.
If I'm wrong about this I am happy to be set right .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-06-06 12:21
Hi Julian,
That's a good point. I'll look up and find out what FSC approved actually means.
I'm not sure if I ought to keep pursuing this on this thread, should we? I wonder if I ought to move it to a different one, if anyone else is interested to keep discussing it?
I worry that I am talking to myself a bit because of my enthusiasm for forestry.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-06-06 15:11
Hi Jen ,
I think that any solid research revealing the true facts regarding Blackwood timber and its logging ,is something of considerable significance to this topic post and indeed many others .
Personally I appreciate anyone prepared to dedicate to that investigation.... It will help us all to know what we're talking about rather than largely speculating .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Mr. Mitch
Date: 2023-06-08 00:39
I am one of those newbies whose talents will not outgrow even an intermediate clarinet. However, I have the means to buy a professional clarinet which I will never do justice. I was going to buy a new clarinet. FWIW, this email string has opened my eyes to the value of a good, used clarinet. I just purchased a Yamaha CX (circa 2004) which has been overhauled by a legitimate music store ($1183). I never would have considered a used clarinet at all but for this group. Thanks for opening my eyes and saving some wood.
Mitchell D Benjamin
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2023-06-08 04:56
Mr. Mitch wrote:
> I am one of those newbies whose talents will not outgrow even
> an intermediate clarinet. However, I have the means to buy a
> professional clarinet which I will never do justice. I was
> going to buy a new clarinet. FWIW, this email string has opened
> my eyes to the value of a good, used clarinet. I just purchased
> a Yamaha CX (circa 2004) which has been overhauled by a
> legitimate music store ($1183). I never would have considered a
> used clarinet at all but for this group. Thanks for opening my
> eyes and saving some wood.
>
Funny Mitchell, baring maybe a Yamaha, I'd rarely consider buying a new instrument even assuming money not the reason.
(I too am a hobbyist, but a serious and long time one.)
If a repair tech I trust told me they just worked on this Buffet from 1960 whose intonation and action "needs to be seen, it's that good" and I was in the market, I'd much rather the older wood, which was not only better in general, but in specific, past the test of time in the desribed instrument.
I've heard that Harold Wright always looked for used instruments.
It's no secret that today's Buffet Festival has the wood quality of the R13 from years past, and that today's R13 is made from less robust stock.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-06-08 09:59
I also love old things of quality craftsmanship that have been properly restored, well preserved , or above all , on which I am able to execute a quality restoration myself .
They have a " soul" and venerability which new things just don't have .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-06-08 15:58
Mitch - that's fantastic news about your clarinet. I hope you have a wonderful time with it.
I think that if you can find a good used instrument then that is a really top notch option environmentally.
Honestly, I think that in everything, not just clarinets, we are probably going to need to start enjoying "pre-loved" stuff much more, and valuing brand new stuff much less.
I suppose it's like that thing they mention in The Hobbit, where things are passed from family to family, and used by generation after generation (if I remember correctly).
Possibly in future we will love our clarinet, not because it is new and expensive, but because it once belonged to "x person" who was a valued member of our community.
The email to my plant science department list is all ready to go, so hopefully someone might reply who knows about this stuff.
Adult learner, Grade 3
Equipment: Yamaha Custom CX Bb, Fobes 10K CF mp,
Legere Bb clarinet European Cut #2.5, Vandoren Optimum German Lig.
Post Edited (2023-06-08 17:15)
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