 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2023-05-14 22:19
Silly question...but do we all agree on what the chin is?
I was reading an article on a somewhat popular clarinet blog today and ran across the recommendation for band instructors (when teaching clarinetists) to, "Make sure their chin is parallel to the ground."
This at first struck me as a humorous mistake - where the author must have meant, "...perpendicular..." to the ground.
I decided to make sure my understanding wasn't faulty, and looked up the definition of "chin." The results surprised me.
Example 1:
"1: the lower portion of the face lying below the lower lip and including the prominence of the lower jaw
2: the surface beneath or between the branches of the lower jaw"
What?! The first definition appears to refer to a portion of the (frontal) face, while the second does not.
Example 2:
"1. the lower extremity of the face, below the mouth.
2. the prominence of the lower jaw."
Okay, but then how can the "prominence of the lower jaw" be parallel or perpendicular...or even made to be "pointed?" How does one "scrunch up" the prominence of the lower jaw?
Example 3:
"1. The central forward portion of the lower jaw."
Fair enough, but where does the "forward portion" of the lower jaw" begin and end? Is the forward part measured from the front of the jaw, or from back around the ear? Does it include the jaw's underside? Does it start at the end of the slope from the ear?
The differences of these definitions made me wonder if folks around the world (or even regionally) might use the word "chin" somewhat differently. Some of the results in my query of dictionaries show the #1 and #2 meanings swapped around.
When folks read how the "chin" should be positioned - or even shaped - while playing the clarinet...will they be thinking of the same body part in the same orientation that the poster was?
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2023-05-15 00:16
Fuzzy wrote:
> The differences of these definitions made me wonder if folks
> around the world (or even regionally) might use the word "chin"
> somewhat differently.
>
> When folks read how the "chin" should be positioned - or even
> shaped - while playing the clarinet...will they be thinking of
> the same body part in the same orientation that the poster was?
>
My knee-jerk answer is that it really doesn't matter what "they're" thinking of. Your chin position follows - results from - the way you set your jaw, your teeth and your lips - i.e. your embouchure. I don't even mention "chin" to my students. All you can control is your jaw - the lower teeth - and your lips. There's plenty you can do (good and bad) with those without trying to meddle with body parts that aren't independent.
Karl
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Author: smokindok
Date: 2023-05-15 09:10
kdk wrote:
> My knee-jerk answer is that it really doesn't matter what
> "they're" thinking of. Your chin position follows - results
> from - the way you set your jaw, your teeth and your lips -
> i.e. your embouchure. I don't even mention "chin" to my
> students. All you can control is your jaw - the lower teeth -
> and your lips. There's plenty you can do (good and bad) with
> those without trying to meddle with body parts that aren't
> independent.
>
> Karl
The musculature of the chin itself, primarily the (paired) mentalis muscle, cannot be disregarded when considering the facial muscles that contribute to embouchure formation. The mentalis has its origin at the anterior mandible (the mental protuberance) and inserts in the soft tissue and skin of the chin. It helps in positioning the lower lip and is the muscle that wrinkles the chin. Certainly, these actions are involved in the formation of a clarinet embouchure.
Of course, for many, perhaps most, students, things need to be simplified; but from the way I read it, the question Fuzzy asks in his original post is not about teaching chin position, but about the danger of advice given using ambiguous or confusing terminology. Fuzzy's question is important.
My answer is, if the person writing a post/blog/advice wishes to have any credibility or be seen as an authority, then when mentioning an anatomic structure, they will use the proper anatomic definition. In this case, the definition of the chin will read quite consistently something like "the inferior portion of the face lying inferior to the lower lip and including the central prominence of the jaw."
That said, ... "Make sure their chin is parallel to the ground."... I can't make sense of that; refers to head tilt, maybe?
John
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-05-15 09:50
I can see that it is possibly saying to "hold your head up" while playing. Nothing more involved than the first page of Bonade's Clarinetist's Compendium.
however
I have come to the conclusion that there are many "good" positions as long as you are consistent and get good results. For example some great players take on an attitude that appears as if they are looking slightly downwards and still sound great.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVRgKs5t86A
If that's what is being talked about.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2023-05-15 20:48
smokindok wrote:
> kdk wrote:
>
>
> > My knee-jerk answer is that it really doesn't matter what
> > "they're" thinking of. Your chin position follows - results
> > from - the way you set your jaw, your teeth and your lips -
> > i.e. your embouchure. I don't even mention "chin" to my
> > students. All you can control is your jaw - the lower teeth -
> > and your lips. There's plenty you can do (good and bad) with
> > those without trying to meddle with body parts that aren't
> > independent.
> >
> > Karl
>
> The musculature of the chin itself, primarily the (paired)
> mentalis muscle, cannot be disregarded when considering the
> facial muscles that contribute to embouchure formation. The
> mentalis has its origin at the anterior mandible (the mental
> protuberance) and inserts in the soft tissue and skin of the
> chin. It helps in positioning the lower lip and is the muscle
> that wrinkles the chin. Certainly, these actions are involved
> in the formation of a clarinet embouchure.
>
I may have misstated my point. I have to ask, since you've described this mentalis muscle, which appears to be involved in certain facial expressions, how do I activate it intentionally? It seems to support other muscle action in the facial area, but I don't have any sense of it as an independent muscle that I can contract or relax. How would I intentionally position it to affect my chin position?
Karl
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2023-05-16 00:00
smokindok wrote:
> but from the way I read it, the question Fuzzy asks
> in his original post is not about teaching chin position, but
> about the danger of advice given using ambiguous or confusing
> terminology. Fuzzy's question is important.
I think Fuzzy's question is about both. He tells us the comment was "a recommendation for band instructors (when teaching clarinetists)," so it's certainly about teaching *something* - I assume chin position. And of course teachers and others who use ambiguous or confusing terminology are a constant source of confusion and ultimately of failure for students who don't know what to think otherwise.
> That said, ... "Make sure their chin is parallel to the
> ground."... I can't make sense of that; refers to head tilt,
> maybe?
>
I agree - it's meaningless to me as well. Maybe pictures?
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-05-16 05:30
lydian
Great image! Skater and television host Rob Dyrdek would call that a "scorpion."
............Paul Aviles
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Author: smokindok
Date: 2023-05-16 08:24
kdk wrote:
> I may have misstated my point. I have to ask, since you've
> described this mentalis muscle, which appears to be involved in
> certain facial expressions, how do I activate it intentionally?
> It seems to support other muscle action in the facial area, but
> I don't have any sense of it as an independent muscle that I
> can contract or relax. How would I intentionally position it to
> affect my chin position?
>
> Karl
Karl, you have voluntary control over your mentalis when you wrinkle or "bunch up" the skin of your chin. In doing that, you are contracting your mentalis. When you do this, you will also cause a slight protrusion of the lower lip. The "flat chin" that is often advised, when forming a clarinet embouchure, is created by contracting the (paired) depressor labii inferioris muscles, pulling the lower lip down and, along with the orbicularis orbis, positioning the lip over the lower teeth while simultaneously relaxing the mentalis to keep the chin flat. Contracting both the depressor labii inferioris/orbicularis oris muscle system and the mentalis muscles at the same time, when forming a clarinet embouchure, not only results in the bunched-up chin, but also undesired tension due to the depressor labii inferioris/orbicularis oris pulling the lower lip in and down against the teeth, while the mentalis is working against it by causing a protrusion of the lower lip. It seems to me the "flat chin" conventional wisdom is based on the desire to reduce this unnecessary, undesirable tension in the embouchure.
That the experienced player manages this without much of an awareness of what muscles are being used is pretty normal. On the other hand, my flute teacher had a freakishly uncanny ability to unilaterally control every muscle of facial expression independently. Watching her do this was quite entertaining.
John
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Author: donald
Date: 2023-05-16 13:36
"Make sure their chin is parallel to the ground." is certainly one of the most stupid (clarinet related) things I've ever read. It oozes stupidity like a festering boil, and you should not feel at all concerned at not understanding precisely what is meant by this sentence.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2023-05-17 00:56
donald wrote:
> "Make sure their chin is parallel to the ground." is certainly
> one of the most stupid (clarinet related) things I've ever
> read. It oozes stupidity like a festering boil, and you should
> not feel at all concerned at not understanding precisely what
> is meant by this sentence.
But what do you REALLY think about it?
:)
Karl
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2023-05-17 11:10
Thanks for all the responses (the whole gamut).
Karl is correct that my post (perhaps unintentionally) touched on both topics.
The photo(s) provided by Lydian and smokindok were hilarious, but displayed pretty much what I pictured as being "parallel to the ground"...lying on one's belly or back while playing.
Thanks to smokindok for providing a more comprehensive (and yet precise) definition for me.
In looking back at the education I received, I realize how much ambiguity I often struggled with when my various instructors' words/descriptions meant something different to them than they did to me.
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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