 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-05-11 16:28
Hello to all, another topic from me.
I am trying to understand the Bd vs C tuning on a clarinet.
I have understood that for bands the clarinet is tuned Bb instead of C. but why?
I also understood that warming up of the instrument will lengthen the instrument and therefor alter the tuning of the instrument. Does that have to doanything with it. I read and listenend quite a few referencece on the topic.but still fail to understand.
Additionally. when i play the Conmy clarinet it gives the expected Bb,slightly high according to my tuner.but that can be altered and might inprove with better room temps. (it is unfortunately quite cold again here these days)
but when playing the open G, I get a (very) high F.does this have the same reasoning as the Bb vs C.
Understanding this all would help me a lot. I will continue to read into this but since it didn't click for me yet , I don't believe it will soo. so if anyone feel they can explain it simple to me I would really appreciate it.
kind greats
Matthieu
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-05-11 18:47
Hi Matthieu,
Look up " Trasposing instruments " , Wikipedia etc .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: lydian
Date: 2023-05-11 19:59
When there is a family of instruments like clarinets in all different sizes, they're obviously going to make lower or higher notes according to their length. Hundreds of years ago, somebody had the idea to make the fingerings across the whole family exactly the same, no matter what actual pitch was produced. This left the transposition to the arranger/composer. So all the player has to do is play what they read, and the correct note will come out. The alternative is for the fingering system to be different on every instrument. So a Bb clarinet player would only ever be able to play a Bb clarinet. An A clarinet would have an entirely different fingering system. Many would have written music that's in different clefs, difficult keys or would have so many ledger lines that it would be essentially unreadable.
There are also clarinets in C, Eb, A, Ab, and D (probably others as well). If these all weren't transposing instruments, you'd have to learn different fingerings for each. Since they are transposing instruments, you can use exactly the same fingerings as your Bb clarinet and read music written for each type of clarinet without doing any transposition in your head. Transposing instruments are a wonderful thing.
Beginners often have a hard time accepting this system. I've tried to explain it many times, but it rarely works. So all I can say is, that's they way it is, get used to it. It beats the alternative by a mile.
As for your issues of playing out of tune, that's due to your lack of skill and experience.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2023-05-11 20:05
Your tuning device reads out in concert pitch unless you have a specialized one that can be set for specific instruments. That is why your clarinet "C" reads as concert pitch Bb and your clarinet "G" reads as concert pitch F. You can make adjustments to the length of the instrument by pulling out the barrel and middle joint sockets to get these notes in tune. Pulling out at the barrel will affect both the G and C with more affect to the G. Pulling out at the middle joint will only affect the C.
Be careful with tuning or adjusting to the G though, that note is very easy to play out of tune from issues other than the clarinet length so I usually don't use it as a tuning note for my instrument. I usually use the low F and chalemeu C as my check notes, along with their 2nd register counterparts of C and G respectively.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-05-11 21:06
@ Julian,
Thanks again for your informative reply! I have read the wiki page and think I sort of understand.
@ Hunter_100
Quote:
Your tuning device reads out in concert pitch unless you have a specialized one that can be set for specific instruments. That is why your clarinet "C" reads as concert pitch Bb and your clarinet "G" reads as concert pitch F. You can make adjustments to the length of the instrument by pulling out the barrel and middle joint sockets to get these notes in tune. Pulling out at the barrel will affect both the G and C with more affect to the G. Pulling out at the middle joint will only affect the C.
/Quote.
thanks, that is clear!
Quote:
Be careful with tuning or adjusting to the G though, that note is very easy to play out of tune from issues other than the clarinet length so I usually don't use it as a tuning note for my instrument. I usually use the low F and chalemeu C as my check notes, along with their 2nd register counterparts of C and G respectively.
/Quote
Oke, thank you. import addition, I never assumed to be able to play pure from the start, but practical information like this is important to know!
@ Lydian
Quote:
Beginners often have a hard time accepting this system. I've tried to explain it many times, but it rarely works. So all I can say is, that's they way it is, get used to it. It beats the alternative by a mile.
/Quote..
it's not so much a matter of accepting (for me anyway), but more of understanding the why, anything I understand I can accept. and thanksto all the replies i am getting there.. one thing i am still missing is.. that possible alternative it beats.. what would be alternatives?
kind greats
Matthieu
Post Edited (2023-05-11 21:15)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2023-05-11 21:43
spikey1973 wrote:
> it's not so much a matter of accepting (for me anyway), but
> more of understanding the why, anything I understand I can
> accept. and thanksto all the replies i am getting there.. one
> thing i am still missing is.. that possible alternative it
> beats.. what would be alternatives?
>
If you're asking about alternatives to transposing the notation for a family of different-sized instruments, it would be that a player would have to know a different set of fingerings for each member of the family. A clarinetist would need to know different fingerings for each member of the clarinet family.
A practical example is the family of recorders, which are written by tradition in "concert" (actual sounding) pitch - up or down an octave. Soprano and tenor recorders are pitched in C - their longest-tube note is C. The sopranino, alto and bass recorders are all pitched in F. players need to know two different sets of fingerings. On the C instruments, C is played with all finger holes covered. To play C on an F instrument, you only cover the top 3 holes (the left hand only).
Karl
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-05-11 23:08
As a beginner it's natural and healthy to have a lot of questions .... I like that.
I'm a bit concerned however , that without the aid of a teacher you are unlikely to properly address the questions you most need to be addressing to advance with your playing and not developing bad habits etc.
If you're an autodidactic spirited person that's great...me too , but at least a few lessons to get you off to a good start will be worth every penny and greatly increase your learning curve .
I play acoustic guitar from the autodidactic approach ( along with a million other mediocre plonkers), you just learn chords and friggydiggit ..Ha-ha ! But I don't think that the clarinet equally lends itself to that .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-05-11 23:19
Warming up the clarinet may cause the physical dimensions to change by a fraction of an imperceptible amount (you'll notice thermal expansion far more on a plastic clarinet as the longer key rods will feel freer or sloppier between the pillars as the plastic expands), but the main effect the rise in temperature will cause is lowering the density of the air within the bore which is what causes the pitch to sharpen.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-05-11 23:37
@ kdk
thank you, yeah indeed that makes sense!
@ Julian
I understand.. and as said, I have a friend (of a friend) that is willing to help me along, at least untill i find a good teacher. Untill we can meet up I am following the lessons of Michelle Anderson (www.clarinetmastery.com).
trying things from the very first step.. I found thatside as she seems to be very focussed on properly explaining good technique and why that is important. ofcourse it can never reach the teachings of an actual teacher.. but for now.. it isdifficult for me not to pick it up now it is here.
@ Chris P
Quote:
the main effect the rise in temperature will cause is lowering the density of the air within the bore which is what causes the pitch to sharpen.
/Quote.
thank you!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Selmer Buff
Date: 2023-05-12 02:15
Re: tuning and a warm instrument. It is not the dimensional change of a warm instrument that brings it into tune; it is the temperature of the vibrating air column. The speed of sound in air is directly proportional to the temperature. As the speed of sound increases, the wavelength shortens (goes sharp).
Certainly, the change in dimension has an effect, but it is very minor and of second order (maybe third order) concern. Tempco of expansion for wood is only a few micrometers per meter, K.
Air molecules bouncing around, bumping into each other, are transmitting the sound (pressure waves). As the molecules get warmer, they move faster with their extra energy. Fill your clarinet with helium and the dogs will bark because the atoms are so low in mass that they move much faster.
Have a better day.
-Selmer Buff
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-05-12 10:34
Unlike a piano , a clarinet cannot be engineered to play every note in tune . But happily unlike a piano , the player can bend the pitch for correcting that . Behind the designe of every clarinet there has been some juggling of trade-offs. The imperfect result of that is referred to as the instruments " Natural tuning ".
If you imagine a church organ with all its range of tube lengths and sizes individually tailored to produce all the separate notes and then roll it all into one you have the wind instruments based on a single tube .
I'm thinking you may like the "Strobosoft " tuner app (if you have an iPad )
It's format of blue and black vertical sliding grids provides great visual feedback
while you play .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-05-12 20:00
@ Julian
Quote:
Unlike a piano , a clarinet cannot be engineered to play every note in tune . But happily unlike a piano , the player can bend the pitch for correcting that . Behind the designe of every clarinet there has been some juggling of trade-offs. The imperfect result of that is referred to as the instruments " Natural tuning ".
/Quote.. Check!
Unfortunately I do not use apple, only android.. so I will go and have to look for something similar for android.. if it exists.
Today I was replied b an teacher, he will contact me soon for a test lesson.
@ Selmer
Quote:
Re: tuning and a warm instrument. It is not the dimensional change of a warm instrument that brings it into tune; it is the temperature of the vibrating air column. The speed of sound in air is directly proportional to the temperature. As the speed of sound increases, the wavelength shortens (goes sharp).
/Quote..
Check!, As Chris P said.. makes sense ofcourse.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-05-25 16:44
just an additional question.
Quote:
I'm thinking you may like the "Strobosoft " tuner app (if you have an iPad )
It's format of blue and black vertical sliding grids provides great visual feedback
while you play.
/Quote..
As said, I am not on any apple tablet/phone. So I looked around for a strobe tuner in android and I found "Airyware" tuner that also has the option to transpose and set specific instruments. Generally it seems like a versatile app.
Quote:
That is why your clarinet "C" reads as concert pitch Bb and
your clarinet "G" reads as concert pitch F.
/Quote..
But this app now has so many option which confuses me again.
It has specific settings for clarinet, a total of 11:
1-4) from sub-contra octave up to contra octave, great octave, small octave.
5-9) from 1-line octave to 5-line octave
10-11) from resonance Low to resonance high.
Of these I can choose (obviously?, but thought to mention anyways) only one.
additionally, one can also transpose by the cents and by semitone.
Now from (all of) these options... what would be a good / the best setup to use inconjunction with my Bb Clarinet, to verify tuning of the instument (taking ofcourse there is the option to bent the notes, if there even is such a thing.
Kind greats
Matthieu
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: lydian
Date: 2023-05-25 20:43
I just downloaded that app. Since the Bb soprano clarinet has a range of D3 - Bb6, you'll need to use 1 line octave, 2 line octave, and 3 line octave to cover the entire range. You won't make it into the 3 line octave range for at least a year. The terms "1 line octave", etc. may have some meaning to the app designer, but they are meaningless to me. This app looks needlessly complex, and I can't see myself ever using it.
Most people use the tuning note of concert A or Bb which would be 1 line and 2 line octave respectively.
Personally, I just use a simple app like Clear Tune or Tonal Energy. It's easy enough to transpose 1 step in my head if necessary. You'll have to do that in a band anyway.
I loved the old mechanical strobe tuner that was in my band room back in the 70s, but times have changed, and simple apps with different sorts of displays accomplish the same thing.
Getting one single note perfectly in tune isn't very important anyway since the moment you start playing your pitch will change a little anyway as you warm up and as you play different notes. Ultimately a tuner gives you a good starting point, but you have to use your ears after that.
Post Edited (2023-05-25 20:58)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-05-25 21:49
@ Lydian,
Thank you so much for dowloading the app and give it a go, really appreciated!
After this I took the time to watch a few Tonal Energy reviews online and this made your review make real sense, specifically your point off it being needlessly complex.
So this app was deleted and I decided, that even though I generally don't like to pay for apps you can't try first, I was going to pay there fee as there seemed to be a general consenses (here on BBoard and in general) on it being a great app and multi purpose.
Quote:
Ultimately a tuner gives you a good starting point but you have to use your ears after that.
/Quote..
that is indeed my intended path..
So thank you again..
Kind greats
Matthieu
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Luuk ★2017
Date: 2023-05-26 14:28
Give the app Soundcorset a try. Transposable tuner, and metronome with settable rythms in one.
Regards,
Luuk
Philips Symphonic Band
The Netherlands
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
