 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2023-04-22 21:07
I recently watched an interesting Youtube video from Michael Lowenstern on the Uebel Plateau Clarinet.
https://youtu.be/HDE_iUOPF8c
For those of you just "coming up to speed" this is a clarinet whose tone holes are more like those of a saxophone, in that there is no directly placement of the pad of a finger on an open hole of the instrument. Rather you press a key, on whose other side lies a pad which covers the hole for you.
Michael went into discussing how the design of this instrument was one where the developer didn't merely replaced open tone holes with pads, as the proximity of the pads to the holes on this instrument were close enough that if you approached a non-plateau clarinet's tone holes with the pad of finger at similar distance it would likely stifle the note played. He seemed to think there there might have been some undercutting of tone holes on the plateau instrument to allow the clarinet's pads such close proximity to the holes, while not stifling the sound.
This led me to wonder if anyone as converted a non-plateau clarinet to a plateau one, say for an aging player, what that involved, and whether is was successful.
TIA
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2023-04-23 01:49
Not done it. Would be tricky even if you had a 7 ring clarinet, since the rings go below the chimneys. Otherwise, placing cork pads on top of the rings would be my first idea.
There are lots of old covered hole instruments around that could be measured to tell how the makers dealt with the problem of less ventilation.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-04-23 06:38
I'm currently rebuilding a 1930s Selmer (Paris) Sterling plateaux clarinet (diamond logo and not made by Malerne) and the plateaux mechanism on that is probably the easiest one to copy if you're planning on adapting a regular ring key clarinet to full plateaux keywork.
The top joint shared pillars for the C#/G# and LH2 ring key and the upper one that's shared with the trill keys and the LH1 ring key have an extra pillar head on them making it a three tier set of pillars for the LH2 and LH3 fingerplates. There's also plenty of room for stud pillars to be fitted to create adjustable stoppers and extra needle spring mounts.
Once I get the photos off my camera, I'll post them on here.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2023-04-23 07:07
I was really hoping that you'd chime in here Chris given your repair experience--thanks.
It is curious to me that you are rebuilding what was originally sold as a plateau clarinet, to presumably a working plateau clarinet, rather than modifying a clarinet of non-plateau origins into a plateau one.
I wonder if the the tone holes on your specimen are undercut differently than what might be found in a non-plateau clarinet, and if there is more to converting a non-plateau clarinet into one than merely changing keys: as arduous a task as this hardware adaption is in its own right.
As you've offered, do keep us posted! 
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-04-23 07:35
This is what surprised me as the main action tonehole diameters are pretty much the same as on a ring key model with tonehole chimneys - I compared the diameters with a 1948 BT and there's hardly much in it. I was expecting the toneholes in the plateaux model to be narrower die to them being considerably shorter compared to the extra height of the raised chimneys.
And as it's a large bore Selmer, the toneholes are straight rather than undercut on it.
Stay tuned!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2023-04-23 08:00)
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2023-04-23 16:22
I wonder if just putting some Sugru on top of each ring and making it conform to the hole would work well enough. Need a release agent or plastic wrap on each hole until it sets up. Still need to deal with LH 3 somehow.
Testing on an inexpensive clarinet might be interesting.
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2023-04-23 20:46
Mojo wrote:
> I wonder if just putting some Sugru on top of each ring and
> making it conform to the hole would work well enough. Need a
> release agent or plastic wrap on each hole until it sets up.
> Still need to deal with LH 3 somehow.
>
> Testing on an inexpensive clarinet might be interesting.
>
Mojo: that to me is an enormously inciteful comment you made on the potential use of Sugru to attempt a "cheap man's plateau clarinet!"
I say this because my interest in plateau instruments is for a friend whose rheumatoid arthritis has caused some of her fingers to bend at their tips more than other fingers, and that perhaps only the tone holes normally covered by the most effected of these fingers can be "plateaued" on her instrument.
Sugru seems like such a wonder product for this purpose. At adheres well, conforms, and once dry, still remains a certain degree of plasticity in shape so crucial to things like covering tone holes that clarinet pads and the pads of fingers possess.
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2023-04-23 21:18
The issue is you can not just put something on the rings to cover the tone hole. Each tone hole needs a key that can open and close independently of the others for the instrument to work. For example, for the right hand ring key if you were to simply install pad cups to the existing ring key any note played with that key would produce a G/D. That is because if you are closing one key you close them all. Converting a standard clarinet into a plateau clarinet requires adding many additional posts and springs and all of the ring keys need to be heavily modified or replaced entirely.
This is why instruments like flutes and saxophones are often much more mechanically complex than clarinets.
To answer the original question, it is possible but the most cost effective solution is generally to buy a refurbished Normandy plateau clarinet.
-JDbassplayer
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2023-04-23 22:02
What are the mechanical issues with somehow adding a plateau only to the LH index finger ring? Would the venting under the new pad when open be enough to produce reliable/in tune altissimo notes?
Karl
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2023-04-23 22:21
The LH index finger ring closes when you press the thumb ring, so F/C would come out as E/B. You would need to split the hinge tube for that key in 2 and add a linkage between them as well as add an additional spring before a pad cup could be added.
On the plateau clarinets I've played the altissimo has generally not been too much of an issue, though ideally you would want a small vent here like on bass clarinet.
-JDbassplayer
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2023-04-24 00:27
jdbassplayer wrote:
> The issue is you can not just put something on the rings to
> cover the tone hole.
I should have been more descriptive in my desire to effect such mechanisms to the left hand/upper joint keys for this friend, the limitations of the left pointer finger you describe duly noted.......
...so true about the right hand tone holes....
Post Edited (2023-04-24 00:35)
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2023-04-24 00:34
kdk wrote:
> What are the mechanical issues with somehow adding a plateau
> only to the LH index finger ring? Would the venting under the
> new pad when open be enough to produce reliable/in tune
> altissimo notes?
>
> Karl
I don't know. But the original video--granted a clarinet where ALL tone holes are covered by pads, not just the LH index finger ring you describe (and its associated hardware modifications jdbassplayer discussed)--seemed to infer that the clarinet body had differently undercut tone holes to permit the clear voicing of notes with open pads on this plateau instrument, where those pads were so close to the tone holes that if that distance was mimicked by a finger on an non-plateau clarinet, it would dampen sound.
I'm thinking that there's "stuff" going on inside the pipe that we can't see in addition to the visually obvious hardware changes on the outside.
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Author: gwlively
Date: 2023-04-24 00:47
https://www.clarinet.dk/content/show_content.php?id=101&cont=eu&lang=en&instr=cla
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2023-04-24 01:43
>I should have been more descriptive in my desire to effect such mechanisms to
>the left hand/upper joint keys for this friend, the limitations of the left pointer
>finger you describe duly noted.......
It's true of all the ring keys on the clarinet, not just the right hand ring key. In fact the upper joint ring keys are even more tricky to convert to a plateau mechanism.
>I'm thinking that there's "stuff" going on inside the pipe that we can't see in
>addition to the visually obvious hardware changes on the outside.
I haven't tried the Uebel but on other plateau clarinets as well as alto and bass clarinets the answer is surprisingly much simpler than one might think. All you need to do is make sure that there is sufficient venting between the pad and the tone hole. Acoustically a plateau key is no different than any other key on the instrument where a pad covers a tone hole (for example: throat A, G/D, F/C, etc.).
Looking at pictures of the Uebel the plateau keys are set quite high which explains why it plays similarly to the standard version (look at the first small picture on the bottom):
https://www.earspasm.com/clarinets/uebel-superior-plateau-bb-clarinet
-JDbassplayer
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2023-04-24 04:22
JDbassplayer wrote:
> It's true of all the ring keys on the clarinet, not just the
> right hand ring key. In fact the upper joint ring keys are even
> more tricky to convert to a plateau mechanism.
What might need to be done to the left middle finger tone hole and ring key apart from "plateauing it?"
I certainly appreciate how the left pointer finger key's need to not close its tone hole when only the left thumb hole is covered would have to be accounted for.
gwlively wrote:
https://www.clarinet.dk/content/show_content.php?id=101&cont=eu&lang=en&instr=cla
wow--thanks...these guys seem to not only do plateau retrofits on many clarinet models but to 1, several, many or all tone holes upon request...
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2023-04-24 04:56
>What might need to be done to the left middle finger tone hole and ring key
>apart from "plateauing it?
It also needs an independent plateau key, linkage and spring in order for the 1 and 1 fingering to work. In this location either a pin or a bridge like you see on flute key work is also needed. Though I suppose if you didn't need the 1 and 1 fingering you could just plateau over the ring. This would make a tremolo from Bb to Eb in the lower register or F to Bb in the upper register almost impossible though. It also makes some alternate altissimo fingerings as well as some resonance fingerings impossible.
-JDbassplayer
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2023-04-24 05:32
jdbassplayer wrote:
> It also needs an independent plateau key, linkage and spring in
> order for the 1 and 1 fingering to work
gotcha. I see that now. Thanks.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2023-04-24 14:36
>> I wonder if just putting some Sugru on top of each ring and making it conform to the hole would work well enough. <<
First there are the issues jdbassplayer explained, which would require a very significant modification to the hinges.
Second, look at the rings interacting with the chimneys. Whether you use Sugru or something else, you would need to build it over the ring and be thick enough to support itself and your constant finger pressure and "hammering" it against the tone hole. This would raise the ring key by quite a bit.
Same for adding a pad key to the ring, with the additional issue of itis being buried and hard to adjust. A material like Sugru is a little too hard and non-adjustable, and because the force comes at an angle from the side, it is very likely to not seal that well once it dried, and combined with the firmness it's a problem.
To overcome this by not having the rings lower that much, they are too angled to the chimneys, and aligning them would move them farther back, causing yet more potential issues.
In reality the chimneys really need to be cut into the key style tone holes to modify a regular clarinet to plateau.
>> It is curious to me that you are rebuilding what was originally sold as a plateau clarinet, to presumably a working plateau clarinet, rather than modifying a clarinet of non-plateau origins into a plateau one. <<
For all the reasons mentioned in the thread, modifying a clarinet to plateau is just much more work, that few people are interested in doing this. It depends on what part and how much of the clarinet you want/need to make plateau, how much you are you willing to invest and maybe how long you can be without the clarinet.
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2023-04-24 16:59
I did not realize that some rings close when you want the hole open. I mostly play BC so I did not have my sop clar out to take a look. Seems like wasted motion but I guess it simplifies something.
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-04-24 17:55
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Attached are some photos of how the main action fingerplates are mounted on this old Selmer Sterling clarinet.
You can see with this arrangement how they managed to make full Boehms with full plateaux keywork as the top joint fingerplates for LH2 and 3 are mounted on a third tier. It's not difficult to silver solder extra pillar heads onto existing pillars on order to mount another layer of keywork between them.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2023-04-24 20:06)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-04-25 19:26
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As a temporary measure I recently fitted this brass bush to the RH3 the ring key on an early Selmer Centered Tone which made it much easier for the owner to cover. The underside is recessed and has an EVA foam gasket stuck to it that seals against the top of the RH3 chimney.
Well, that was until this afternoon as that early CT came back as part exchange with the Selmer Sterling plateaux clarinet as the player took to the full plateaux keywork right away.
I think Selmer have definitely done a good design with this plateaux keywork and that's something that shouldn't be too difficult to fabricate and there's no pinned mechanisms involved. Plus it could also be adapted to include a LH forked Eb/Bb mechanism making a full plateaux full Boehm perfectly feasible.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2023-04-26 17:30)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2023-04-27 04:00
Not totally relevant, but related: Last year I converted an old Kohlert ring-system oboe to all-plateau keys. A lot of work but ended well. I keep at as a backup instrument.
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Author: DougR
Date: 2023-04-29 15:38
This is a terrific thread, and my thanks to everybody who contributed. It's become a topic of immediate personal interest to ME, having a pair of forefingers that somehow over the last couple of years have bent toward their neighboring middle fingers. In recovery from thumb CMC surgery, a few years back, I've been mainly playing bass clarinet and various flutes. On returning to my pair of R13s, I find that I simply can't play the A due to finger migration on the right hand.
I'm seeing an orthopedist/ hand specialist in the next few weeks to find out what-all can be done therapeutically (more than just the one issue needs to be addressed), but this whole discussion is enormously helpful to have read.
Chris's "temporary" brass fitting is VERY interesting; I can see it perhaps being useful in my situation since I don't (yet) need a total plateau instrument, just a closed hole on RH 1 (which brings its own problems, one being playing middle-finger B/F#).
Thanks again, folks.
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Author: Hurstfarm
Date: 2023-04-30 01:00
Hanson in the UK are now offering plateau options at different levels in the range. Their standard instruments are well-made so these are likely to be thoughtfully designed, and worth considering by players with small fingers or struggling with arthritis or neuropathy.
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Author: richardstone
Date: 2023-05-01 07:18
I'll throw my two cents in about Hansons Plateau clarinets. I originally purchased a used student model made by Hanson early last year. I started playing about 5 years ago and was having problems consistently closing tone holes. When I tried a bass clarinet and had none of those types of problems I knew that I needed to find a plateau bb solution. I did some research and found that Hanson made a student model and purchased one. Immediately upon receiving the instrument all of the tone hole problems were gone. The instrument felt exactly the same as my R13 but without the problems. I have arthritis and small hands and I found the Hanson extremely comfortable. My teacher was amazed at the quality and sound of the instrument.
Late last year I contacted Alistair Hanson about a top of the line model in plateau setup and purchased a T7 which is an absolutely amazing instrument. Functionally the same as the student instrument, but with wood instead of plastic, the sound is wonderful, rich, full, somewhat dark, and so easy to play. I think the bore is different than the student instrument. I couldn't be happier or offer a higher recommendation. It is also considerably lower in cost than the Uebel Plateau which I also tried. Both are fine instruments but the Hanson is my favorite.
Richard Stone
richarddstone@mac.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-05-03 17:02
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As for venting, it's go wide or go home. More venting is better than being undervented, especially when playing in the lower register which is where poor venting will be most noticeable.
I shortened the LH thumbplate linkage to allow the thumbplate to open considerably more to give a clear F# and also to allow the open G vent to open as far as it could without clattering against the underside of the throat A key for a clear open G.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2023-05-03 19:20
Hey Chris...question for you.
On this Selmer Sterling which you are restoring, which has always been a plateau clarinet....
....to the extent that you can determine, seeing as you don't have x-ray vision...
.....are some of the tone holes extra undercut to deal with the venting issues of an obstacle always being in front of the tone hole--even if millimeters more distanced then when the key is pressed and the tone hole closed...
..,,I'm curious because in Mr. Lowenstern's review of the Uebel plataeu he seemed to think that its tone holes were more undercut that than of a non-plateau clarinet, precisely for the reason if mitigating stuffiness in sound of an open tone hole, but otherwise one whose covering pad was never much far away, even when in the open state.
Thanks for all the incite you provide to the bboard on clarinet mechanics.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-05-04 03:00
The old large bore Selmers have straight toneholes - the first Selmer to have undercut toneholes was the Series 9*. This Sterling also had straight toneholes throughout.
I can only assume a modern narrow bore clarinet with plateaux keywork will appear to have more undercutting on the main action toneholes as they're going to be cut much shorter and therefore much nearer to the undercutting compared to tonehole chimneys which have more length between the tops of them and the undercutting.
Unless the diameter of the undercutting is much wider (using wider
or different shape undercutters) than on regular ring key models which will be apparent when looking down the bore of both types.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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