 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-04-05 15:08
Attachment: P1010030.JPG (708k)
Attachment: P1010031.JPG (710k)
Here's an older Jakob Winter double case from the '80s which was supplied with this set of RC Prestige clarinets. While all the other slots have some extra length for the joints to slot into without too much slop, the lower joint slot for the A clarinet is too short and there's no way the lower joint can even fit in it. The inner tray is formed from vacuum-formed hard plastic, so has absolutely no give in it at all.
Just to give you the figures:
A clarinet lower joint length: 278mm
A clarinet lower joint slot length: 275mm
Th3 difference isn't marginal - it's significant.
While the positives of this case are the joints are all separated, this is the major flaw of their design.
WHY CAN'T THEY EVER GET IT RIGHT?
Buffet/Jakob Winter single cases aren't without their problems either. It makes you wonder if both parties actually met up to get the final product right considering how long they've both been in collaboration for.
From what I've seen, the only maker whose stock cases are well designed and fit their products like a glove are Yamaha as it's all done in house.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2023-04-07 17:09)
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-04-05 19:32
Hi Chris,
The original Buffet cases for Prestige/Festival clarinets that are made by Jakob Winter seem to be well-made.
There is enough space for the lower joint with the bell pulled out by about 1cm, so the lower tenon cork does not get compressed.
I once tripped and fell onto the double case that I had in my hand. I do not think I fell on the case directly but rather hit the ground with the case first which reduced the body inertia and I did not hit the ground very hard.
Two corners cracked, but both clarinets were fine, and I had the case fixed/glued back. I currently use the case.
I cannot say anything about JW own cases
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-04-06 03:16
I personally don't care for the later Buffet double cases that leave the bells on the lower joints (or separated as much as they allow) as that compresses the tenon corks to some degree or other depending if they're partly separated or not.
I've also had the unenviable task of having to remove bells that have fused to the tenon corks in these cases as they were never removed after playing, so the water that collected in there never got the chance to be cleaned out and did more harm than good being left to soak into the tenon corks.
The Winter double case in the photo was also the same wedge-shaped type as used for pairs of B&H clarinets (Edgware, Emperor, Imperial and 1010), although they were covered in blue or brown vinyl and that used to come apart where they glued it around the stitched edges (instead of actually fully stitching it). Unlike Buffet clarinets, B&H A clarinet lower joints do fit in the slot.
I'd have felt done over if I bought a set of Buffet Prestiges and the lower joint of the A clarinet didn't even fit in the case properly. The owner of these RC Prestiges normally uses a Fel/Orly/Gewa triple case as the A clarinet fits much better and he keeps his Buffet Eb clarinet in there too.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2023-04-06 15:10)
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-04-06 11:40
I bought a Buffet prestige D clarinet. The plastic lining was so garbage it allowed the body to move around in the case and bang into the other parts, marking up the keys.
I removed the lining and put about 1cm of foam under the lining to lift it up. Amazing, the D clarinet is worth mozza dollars in a case like this.
I wrote off to a stack of Buffet dealer around the world, care factor...
I have a number of the winter double case they generally fit my Leblancs well, i agree with the bell situation.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-04-06 20:03
Chris P wrote:
"...I personally don't care for the later Buffet double cases that leave the bells on the lower joints (or separated as much as they allow) as that compresses the tenon corks to some degree or other depending if they're partly separated or not.
I've also had the unenviable task of having to remove bells that have fused to the tenon corks in these cases as they were never removed after playing, so the water that collected in there never got the chance to be cleaned out and did more harm than good being left to soak into the tenon corks..."
Well, I don't know why a competent player would never remove the bell... maybe that was an exception?
My Buffet double case allows about 1/2 of the lower tenon cork to be exposed so I do not see a problem with my pair.
Yes, you are right 100% in that it would be nice to have the bells stored separately from the lower joint.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-04-07 02:28
Yamaha double cases are far more compact than Buffet double cases, yet all the joints have their own separate sections with dedicated space for two mouthpieces and four barrels, plus a small compartment at the back of the case for reeds, tuner, pullthrough, etc. and also a lid compartment for some sheet music. The more recent slimline Yamaha double case with the case cover has even more storage with all the zip-up compartments and again, all the joints are separated in the case itself.
There's ample room in Buffet double cases to have everything separated if only they put the time and effort into redesigning them. Its almost as though Winter have never even seen a Buffet clarinet when designing cases for Buffet. In some cases the adjustable thumbrests don't even fit. I had an S3 Prestige alto sax and the case constantly broke the low C keyguard tab off at the solder joint.
And not just a Winter/Buffet thing as the Bam cases made for Selmer also have cases where the bells have to remain on and have no room to even slightly separate them.
I recently saw a Buffet Legend Bb in its single case which came in what looked like a designer handbag, then the case itself didn't allow the bell to be separated.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2023-04-07 07:43
I've seen more than a few Winter made Buffet cases (both single and double) and they've always fit fine, so something is wrong with that one.
Since it's off by that much it's very unlikely that something warped, especially since the upper section and barrel just next to it seem to fit. There is a lot of space on the right side, maybe someone somehow peeled the fabric and added a piece to modify it? Though that seems very unlikely too...
I've never actually compared Bb and A clarinet lengths... how does a Bb clarinet lower section fit there? Maybe they are made as sort of a puzzle and they used the Bb mold by mistake?
Just guessing how it got that far off, considering the other sections fit and the Winter cases I've seen always fit excellent.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-04-07 17:27
Attachment: P1010031 (1).JPG (688k)
I've got a wedge-shaped B&H double case of the same vintage with exactly the same innards with exactly the same problem with the lower joint of the A clarinet not fitting in the slot.
I just tested it with two regular length A clarinet lower joints (that's A clarinets without the articulated C#/G# mechanism) and one of the lower joints just won't even fit no matter what.
The A clarinet lower joints being a Selmer St. Louis which is 280.5mm long which won't fit at all (see attachment) and a Bettony which is 271.5mm long and fits perfectly with no movement once it's fully in place. The hard plastic both these case inner trays are made of have no give at all and haven't been altered in any way.
All the other joints fit in their respective slots reasonably well with some lateral movement, the adjustable thumbrest being the main problem with the Bb lower joint despite the lengths of the joint and the slot.
The case was originally supplied with a set of B&H Emperor clarinets which fitted, so I'm not sure which make/model clarinet these cases were designed for, but it was definitely not a Buffet RC/RC Prestige A clarinet.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2023-04-07 19:09)
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2023-04-07 19:16
I saw on Jakob winter's website that they sell double cases for Boehm and for German clarinets. Is it possible you have a German case? Would that even matter, I don't have any idea about the joint length differences between the two.
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Author: ebonite
Date: 2023-04-08 12:32
I have exactly the same brown wedge shaped case for my 1980's 1010s.
It's not a great case even for B&H clarinets, because the joints move about too much. At least the brown ones weren't as ugly as the blue ones....
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2023-04-11 08:26
It seems my theories were way off and Winter made them to fit the clarinets they were meant to fit (with a bit to spare maybe). Nothing wrong with them then? I guess someone mistakenly bought it for a different model that doesn't fit. I assume it doesn't even close with the lower section there, so how did they bring them to you?
I happen to have a set of B&H Imperials here in a different case and also a Bb Emperor in its own case. I don't know about the A, but the Bb Imperial lower section is even a bit shorter than the Emperor Bb. I can measure the sections and case later.
I initially thought you meant this case https://jakobwinter.com/products/jw-722-clarinet which other than being pretty terrible regardless, has always fit Buffet clarinets fine. It really doesn't seem like a mistake in Winter's manufacturing, just different cases they made that meant to fit different clarinets.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-04-11 16:02
The double case was supplied with the set of Buffet RC Prestige clarinets when they were bought brand new in the mid '80s - it has the metal Buffet logo badge on the lid. B&H ones had a metal B&H logo badge on the lid.
If case makers did their research, they'd allow the slots for the joints to be long enough to fit the longest joints, even if it meant other makes and models with slightly shorter joints would shift about as one size never suits all.
And with the hardness of the plastic, there's absolutely no give to allow for longer cases to squeeze into the slots or to reform them as you can do with polystyrene or high density EVA foam case innards. There are some American cases made in this same manner and they only fit the instruments they were made for.
As for Winter themselves, their cases always seem to be an afterthought rather than an intrinsic part of the complete outfit. I've had complaints from Keilwerth sax owners about the cases as well as Schreiber bassoon owners, so it's not just Buffet owners who feel short changed when it comes to their stock cases.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2023-04-12 18:58
>> The double case was supplied with the set of Buffet RC Prestige clarinets when they were bought brand new in the mid '80s <<
Oh... Can it close? I assume it can and they didn't sell it partially open... and it just squeezes too much to close?
The lower section on the A clarinet from the B&H set I have here now is only 267mm. If I wiggle it in the case it's maximum 5mm of movement, more like 4mm, so it's at most 271mm of space there. I guess you could squeeze a clarinet section a couple of millimeters longer... maybe.
Obviously they can make cases that fit since some Buffet cases made by Winter fit fine.
I'm wondering if that was just a mistake that they sent them the B&H cases, or if Buffet belonged to B&H back then, maybe it was B&H who used the wrong cases for Buffet clarinets too... something silly like that.
Does Winter still make cases for Buffet? The bass clarinet case Buffet basses always had is no longer on Winter's website, and I don't think I've seen a new one with that case for years. I see a lot of new Buffets with Bam cases. I'm pretty sure I remember recent ones still with that rectangle brown case (I thought Winter made those but not sure and they never had exactly that case).
Post Edited (2023-04-13 08:14)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-04-12 20:59
The lower joint tenon of the A clarinet has to be left proud of the joint slot in order to close the case which is better than the socket end as that'll risk bending the keywork when the lid is closed. The lid DOES close, but it's not ideal having the tenon being squashed into the lid cushion (which is also a drop-down sheet music compartment).
The newer compact single case supplied with the Legend is similar to the Tosca single Bb case but better finished on the outside. I didn't see any maker's mark or tag on it as Bam do on their own cases, nor a Winter logo on it. The inside did feel soft and squishy like a Bam case and the outer shell felt as flimsy as Bam cases.
Winter have been making cases for B&H, Buffet and Schreiber for several decades with some being very durable (like the old plastic Evette clarinet cases) and others that didn't do so well through normal use.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: DougR
Date: 2023-04-13 01:06
Well, back in the 90s I bought a Winter double case to hold a pair of R13s; it has its own wacky and inexplicable design features, mainly that the drop-down music compartment needs to have enough music in it to keep the lid flat against the clarinets below it, otherwise there's nothing holding the Bb clarinet in place, leaving it free to voyage forth to nether parts of the case where it doesn't belong. The instruments DO fit the cutouts, but the bells need to be on the lower joints (although there's room for the bells to be pulled about 1/2 inch out).
The reed and pencil binnacle that runs the length of the front of the case has no lid to it, either, so you have to keep a couple of rolled up swabs in it so the pencils and reeds don't migrate to other parts of the case.
The springs in both latches gave up years ago, too (they're identical to the latches on my R13 individual case, which still work).
All that said, the case is extremely well made and has held up very well. Maybe my complaints are fairly typical of double cases? Maybe it's harder to design a double case for varied clarinet brands than I think it is?
Anyway, comment offered for what it's worth. (I think if I were going to replace this case I'd opt for a BAM case; my bass cases for the low Eb and low C are wonderfully light and are holding up very well.)
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Author: donald
Date: 2023-04-13 04:01
I had one like that for a while, came with a pair of S1's if I remember correctly... I had no problems with it, but was also probably a lot less picky then than I'd be now... all the joints fitted ok...
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