 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Chris_C ★2017
Date: 2023-03-11 21:13
One of the players in my community band has just been given a B&H Emperor. It has been sitting in an attic for some decades, so needs an overhaul - probably complete repadding etc? How much would it be worth investing in this instrument (assuming the keywork is OK)?
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-03-12 00:02
Hi Chris,
A quick eBay search shows anywhere from 200 to 400 GBP selling prices.
A "proper" service that includes re-padding, tone holes re-dressing, possibly springs change, not even talking about key and tenon corks, will cost more than it would sell for.
If you found someone who would do it cheap, most likely the work would not be done properly.
If the tone holes are in good shape, than your band mate can attempt re-padding by himself.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-03-12 02:11
It's an Emperor - it's an intermediate level clarinet equivalent to a Buffet E11 or Yamaha YCL-450. Look up the retail price of those that's the equivalent VALUE of it.
Yes you can always buy an intermediate or even pro level clarinet for next to nothing if the seller doesn't know what they've got, but that's not necessarily a reflection on its VALUE. However, on student level clarinets, what you pay for a general service (usually carried out every year) or a full overhaul (see below) is always going to end up costing more than it is to buy or sell one, but that's just how things work.
I'm sure you already know you can buy a used car for very little and then end up spending a fortune on doing it up, servicing, new parts, new tyres, fuel and all the other running costs. It's the same thing with musical instruments and that's all part of it.
The cost of a full overhaul (a complete teardown and rebuild) is going to be several hundred quid and that will bring it up to better than it left the factory playability provided it's done well. The cost of an overhaul isn't reflective or a percentage of the purchase price as it's reflective of the amount and the quality of the work done.
And when it comes to having it overhauled, don't just pick a random name from a directory of repairers as there are loads who don't even know one end of a screwdriver than the other, yet they manage to get their name out there because they've paid their subs. Go with someone who has a good reputation amongst clarinettists who don't trust their instruments with some kitchen table amateur bodger who might play clarinet a bit but reckon they're far better than they are. They walk among us and I see their half-arsed all the time. There are even established companies whose repair work is shoddy and get recommendations from players who ought to know better - maybe they get commission seeing as they're affiliated with these companies.
Only this week I saw a used Buffet Festival clarinet that was bought a month ago from a clarinet specialist, yet the quality of the overhaul was abysmal. I wish I got some photos of it so I could share them as the top joint toneholes weren't even cleaned out and still occluded with old dried-up gunk that just doesn't accumulate overnight, natural cork was used everywhere and looked like it was trimmed with a blunt chainsaw, they used cheap quality sin pads and most weren't installed well, spring tensions were all over the place, etc. etc. I showed the new owner of it all this when they were over and they were as shocked as I am that t had supposedly been overhauled before being sold, but so many steps were skipped in the process. So you definitely get what you pay for and even some 'repairers' who charge even more than London prices for repair work do poor quality work, so go on a strong recommendation rather than just anyone who pays their subs to belong to an association.
During lockdown I had a player bring their set of Emperors in for full overhauls - they were told to buy new clarinets even though their emperors they've had since the 1970s were still in excellent condition besides the pads and corks all needing replacing. Rather than shelling out several thousand on a brand new set of clarinets, they spent a fraction of that on having both of them overhauled and ended up with clarinets they were already familiar with, but were far better players than when they bought them new, plus the fact they didn't have to play them in or have to look for and get used to something different.
B&H use stainless steel screws on Emperors (as they did across the board from the Regent right through to the 1010), so they won't have rusted and the keywork on B&H clarinets is robust. Tarnished silver plate will polish up to a bright shine and is usually fairly thickly done on B&H clarinets and only tends to wear if the player has acidic skin pH or if it gets damaged in some way. One issue many wooden B&H clarinets have is the middle tenon which can be wobbly due to it being undersize and the cork slot being cut too wide leaving no tenon ring at the shoulder, but that's fairy easily addressed for a wobble-free fit for better reliability and stability while playing. Your average repairer will probably gloss over that and cork the entire tenon, but it'll become loose and unstable very quickly. Toneholes can always be addressed if they're unlevel and have chips or nicks in them so they're perfect for pads to seat onto (rather than being forced to seat into). B&H generally use quality grenadilla and cracks can always be repaired should they happen.
The choice of clarinet stand or peg is important for any clarinet with ringless bells as pegs that support the entire weight of the instrument on the inside can crack them, so get a stand with a peg that has a nice flat base for the bell to sit on or offers even support around the bell rim so you're not at risk of them cracking.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2023-03-12 02:55
Personally, I would take it in to a qualified technician and see if a "playing condition" service is sufficient to bring it back to life.
The B&H clarinets aren't for everyone. If it can be made playable without a full overhaul, doing so would more affordably yield the opportunity to give the instrument a thorough trial. Then, one could make a completely informed decision about keeping it as a daily player--and worthy of an overhaul at some point in the future.
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Author: Chris_C ★2017
Date: 2023-03-12 03:08
Thanks for all the advice. I do have a trusted tech who knows clarinets and will recommend she goes to him for a quote on getting it into playable condition. Then she can decide on whether the spend is worth it.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-03-12 04:31
There are qualified techs and then there are experienced techs - there's a difference as having a bit of paper with a qualification on it doesn't always mean experience. There are plenty of people in all professions with qualifications that lack experience. Then there are some with qualifications that lack skills and knowledge, so you really can't go on such trivialities as qualifications when you can always rely on reputation and recommendation.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-03-12 08:10
Chris_C wrote:
"... I do have a trusted tech who knows clarinets and will recommend she goes to him for a quote on getting it into playable condition. Then she can decide on whether the spend is worth it."
I would just remove the "extra" keys - side thrill, banana keys on both joints, close the holes with children putty and try to get out a few basic notes/sounds.
This way she can get an idea of the tone and tuning.
Then decide what to do next.
no reason to spend money to make it "playable" because if that work is not done properly (see the Chris P post above), it might still be leaking air and be difficult to play; in addition if the keys height+venting not adjusted, it may have tuning issues even after it was brought into "playable condition".
The overhaul/service needs to be done properly on every instrument, intermediate, professional or even student level.
Think of brake service on your car- the brakes have to work well regardless if it's a 20. y. old Corolla or brand new MB S550.
Cheaper pads may be used on a student instrument, just like using aftermarket brake pads on old Toyota.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2023-03-12 12:11
Chris P has told you most of what you need to know about the Emperor. I've overhauled or restored several Emperors and Imperials and my experience is that they are well-made and robust. Properly set up they play well, although some have some tuning issues around the break. This can generally be overcome by proper care in voicing the instrument. My own daily blow for many years was a hard rubber Imperial, which is mechanically and acoustically identical with the Emperor, and it was a delight to play. I'd certainly consider an Emperor worth restoring as long as there are no mechanical issues with it.
Tony F.
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2023-03-12 13:08
Chris P, by "qualified tecnician", I refer to techs that I have used and have been completely satisfied with, and are eminently capable of servicing my instruments to my exact specifications.
My technicians offer "play condition" servicing where pads, tenon corks, and bumper corks/felts are replaced on an as-needed basis, keywork is swedged if needed, and the instrument is regulated to bring it into decent playing condition, not just barely playable.
When I bring a new clarinet into my studio, and play-testing it in as-found condition suggests that it's a possible keeper, I get the "play condition" service done.
Over time, working with the new instrument will reveal vagaries with intonation. The next trip to the technician is to address those concerns; if the tuning can't be sorted, the clarinet is a dud and there's no need to go further.
After tuning corrections are made and I find the instrument showing promise of being completely satisfactory, then it's time to consider a full overhaul.
This may not be the most efficient approach, but I've wasted money more than once by having full overhauls performed straightaway on newly-acquired instruments that turned out to have incurable intonation faults.
Post Edited (2023-03-12 13:11)
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Author: Djudy
Date: 2023-03-12 13:22
Is the Emperor a large bore like the B&H pro models ? I have read somewhere (probably here) that they need a B&H mp to play well: is this the case for the Emperor? If such is the case, if you get the pads done but don't have the right mp required you still wont be getting the best from the horn.
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Author: ebonite
Date: 2023-03-12 13:42
Djudy wrote:
> Is the Emperor a large bore like the B&H pro models ? I have
> read somewhere (probably here) that they need a B&H mp to play
> well: is this the case for the Emperor? If such is the case, if
> you get the pads done but don't have the right mp required you
> still wont be getting the best from the horn.
>
The Emperor bore is about 15mm, which is larger than modern Buffets, Selmers, etc, but smaller than the B&H 1010 clarinets.
In theory, it would play best with B&H 593 or 926 mouthpieces, which were designed for those clarinets. But in practice, "normal" mouthpieces work very well (though it's possible that the throat notes would be slightly sharp).
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2023-03-12 16:57
The Emperor, Edgware and 926 Imperial will play perfectly well on ordinary French-style mouthpieces. I used an M30 and it played and tuned fine. The 1010 is a different matter, it is a larger bore instrument and requires a different mouthpiece. Because of the larger bore the mouthpiece needs greater internal volume, these mouthpieces are bored slightly larger, around 15.3mm and are cylindrical-bored. The "normal" French-style mouthpiece is taper-bored to a smaller diameter. B&H mouthpieces marked 1010 will play and tune well on these instruments. Dr Ed Pillinger makes good 1010 mouthpieces or can rebore your own mouthpiece to use on the 1010.
Tony F.
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Author: paulyb
Date: 2023-03-12 17:22
I definitely had some trouble with throat note tuning on my 926 (same basic design as the Emperor) using modern Vandoren mouthpieces - maybe it depends on your playing mechanics / habits? It's probably best to try it for yourself and see.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2023-03-12 20:00
My 926 was the same, but I fixed it by experimenting with the venting around the throat notes. After I sorted that ot it tuned OK using a variety of mouthpieces. Some tuned better than others.
Tony F.
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2023-03-12 21:31
I have the similar 8-10, and it also tunes well with a variety of mouthpieces, my favourite being the Grabner K14e.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-03-12 22:33
If you are using a modern French-style mouthpiece like a Vandoren 5RV Lyre or similar (non "13" series), then you'll probably find you'll have to pull the barrel out by 1-2mm to bring the throat notes down. The standard barrel length on B&H clarinets with this same bore/tonehole layout (Regent, Edgware, Emperor, Imperial 926 and their variants/stencil models) is 67mm.
Bear in mind there's no such thing as a perfectly in tune clarinet as there will be some notes that are purposely made to be flat or sharp and you as the player will have to do what you need to do to tune them.
Not long ago I heard a clarinet player moan that each of her B naturals wasn't perfectly in tune when played in different 8ves (I think she had a Yamaha CSG) - I had to point out that each B used a different fingering and therefore they all issued from a different tonehole or directly from the bell, so there will be some minor inconsistencies with the tuning of each B.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris_C ★2017
Date: 2023-03-13 01:33
As I said, thanks for all the advice. I've used a tech for all my instruments for several years who I trust, so I'll recommend that she consults him.
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Author: graham
Date: 2023-03-13 21:43
If it’s been in an attic for years, might it have warped and gone out of tune? Late Emperors (circa 1975 onwards) are prone to being sharp and have less good keywork.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-03-14 00:44
Attachment: r4430.jpg (330k)
This Selmer CT was left in an attic for years if not decades (like some others I've bought) and it scrubbed up well.
Oh - and it plays nicely too.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2023-03-14 02:34
Those B&H Emperors are sturdy clarinets made from high quality wood and good quality silver plating. I like them (and the 926).
However intonation is not the strongest point: small 12ths in the left hand and small 12ths in the right hand. Using a normal French mouthpiece in stead of the recommended 926/593 makes intonation even worse. May be good enough for a low-grade community band but when demands are getting higher you will get a hard time to play in tune and keep friends with you neighbour clarinet players. For decent intonation a simple Buffet E11 would be a better choice.
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Author: graham
Date: 2023-03-14 21:05
Depends on the attic. Some get very hot.
Emperors were made over many years and the materials quality declined in the later stages of production.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2023-03-15 12:55
"However intonation is not the strongest point: small 12ths in the left hand and small 12ths in the right hand. Using a normal French mouthpiece in stead of the recommended 926/593 makes intonation even worse. May be good enough for a low-grade community band but when demands are getting higher you will get a hard time to play in tune and keep friends with you neighbour clarinet players."
I didn't find that using the 593 or 926 mouthpiece offered any great tuing advantage on my 926, in fact the best tuning was with a Fobes Sanfransisco CF+.
Tony F.
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