 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ofer
Date: 2023-02-28 04:32
If money is not an issue (up to a point) which mouthpiece would you recommend for a beginner?
The most important thing is easiness of producing sound.
The quality of the sound is second
This mouthpiece is recommended by QuickClarinet. what's your opinion about it?
https://backunmusical.com/products/vocalise-clarinet-mouthpiece
(I have BD5 and just want to try something new)
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2023-02-28 05:11
I'd probably start with a Vandoren B45 and then just keep making adjustments as I go.
That's actually what I did. It's been a long time, but I started with a traditional B45, then a B45 Profile 88 (with the red swirl marble look), then an M13.
I'm getting back into it so I got the Ridenour Homage mouthpiece, but I don't think it's quite as compatible for me as I want it to be. I'm expecting a Vandoren M15 Profile88 (non-13 series) in the next few hours. For me, I think it'll help me have the focus and the projection I want. We'll see once it shows up.
Getting back into playing after 20 years.
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Vandoren M15 Profile 88 (non-13) mouthpiece
Vandoren Optimum Silver ligature (plate 1)
Vandoren blue-box #3.5 reeds
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Author: Doug Leach
Date: 2023-02-28 05:59
For a beginner mouthpiece, I can't think of anything better than either a Clark Fobes Debut or Brad Behn's Overture. You couldn't go wrong with either.
https://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com/overture-student-clarinetmouthpiece
https://www.clarkwfobes.com/products/debut-clarinet-mouthpiece?variant=39983864774790
Doug Leach
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Author: gwie
Date: 2023-02-28 06:22
I despise the B45 for beginners. It's such a huge tip opening (1.19+) they end up having to play reeds that are way too soft to get any kind of consistency. Also, hard rubber mouthpieces for beginners who might drop them once or twice is a bad idea--acrylic is the way to go here.
I'm with Doug on this one. Every beginner I've started in the last decade-plus has been on the Behn Overture or the Fobes Debut. They are both extremely consistent mouthpieces that behave predictably, and work well with a range of the reed strengths that beginners might find easiest to interface with (the 2.0-3.0 in most brands).
It also helps that Brad offers trade-in value on the current cost of the Overture towards a step up mouthpiece. And the Fobes Debut lines up well with Clark's Nova line (particularly the CF+ model).
Post Edited (2023-02-28 06:24)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2023-02-28 06:48
I completely agree that the Fobes Debut is the way to go.
I also agree with the comments against the B45 for beginners. I have found those harder to control, especially for younger players.
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Author: sonicbang
Date: 2023-02-28 11:35
I was given a B45 as a beginner. It *helped* me to develop really bad habits that took me years to correct on my own. I saw the same pattern with many clarinettists, except most of them could never recover from biting heavily.
About the Backun Vocalise, I bought one out of curiosity when it was released. It was so stuffy that I couldn't go down enough in reed strength to make it work.
I'm fully aware of many great players are able to get excellect results on a B45, Vocalise, BD5, etc. but I have the feeling they sound great despite their equipment, I mean the same result can be achieved by less effort and spend the remaining focus and energy on musical aspects other than mere sound production.
Surely enough, this is highly subjective. All I try to say is starting with mouthpieces that require less effort is probably better for beginners. And after some time, when they develop their own concept, it's always possible to go forward more open facings and more resistance.
Mark
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Author: ofer
Date: 2023-02-28 14:44
I know that price doesn't guarantee quality, but are you sure it's a good mouthpiece? better than my BD5?
I mean they cost about 40$. the Backun Vocalise cost 150$, Puccini Tosca cost 210$
I play the clarint for more than a year now, so I'm not complete beginner,
but i'm terrible in this.
I'm looking for high quality mouthpiece just as a present for myself.
Tha't why i mentioned that price is not an issue, but i'm also emphasizing that i'm still a beginner so it's important the it won't be to hard to produce a sound.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-02-28 15:50
Hi,
I'm a beginner, relatively speaking. I've been playing for 5 years, but with many gaps from where life got in the way.
I started on a Hite D which was great until I got to grade 3.
I then tried a Fobes Debut and a Fobes 10k CF.
I can't play a Debut at all - I just don't get a note coming out without a long delay.
The 10k CF plays like an absolute dream for me and was totally worth the money.
From my experience I would say that it's really essential to try several mps before you choose one, because it is so variable from person to person.
If you write to Clark Fobes, he would send out several for you to try all at the same time, so you could compare.
Jennifer
Adult learner, Grade 3
Equipment: Yamaha Custom CX Bb, Fobes 10K CF mp,
Legere Bb clarinet European Cut #2.5, Vandoren Optimum German Lig.
Post Edited (2023-02-28 16:29)
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Author: ofer
Date: 2023-02-28 16:36
thanks SunnyDaze.
Can you please write the link for the 10k CF mouthpiece.
In the https://www.clarkwfobes.com/ site I couldn't find this mothpiece for Bb clarinets.
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Author: Doug Leach
Date: 2023-02-28 16:55
https://www.clarkwfobes.com/collections/soprano-clarinet/products/10k-soprano-clarinet-mouthpiece-cwf?variant=31814406537350
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-02-28 17:44
Hi Ofer,
I wondered if I could also say - a lot of people associated "beginner" with children, but if you are an adult with the money to spend, then I think it's really worth spending it on a good mouthpiece.
I'm not exactly sure, but I think there is something about the physics of how air moves inside the mouthpiece. I think that if the mp is made the right way on the inside, then it channels the air so that it flows in a smooth straight cylinder down into the clarinet (like water coming our of a really nicely made kitchen tap). Then the resistance is reduced to almost nothing and it makes the instrument really easy to blow.
With my Hite mp, I have to blow really hard and the sound comes out like as scattergun. Conversely, with the Fobes 10k I feel as though the air shoots straight down the clarinet in a smooth column. I have this sense that it comes out of the end still in a smooth column. I feel as though I could point my clarinet at the opposite wall of my room and hit the bulls eye of a dartboard first time, every time.
I have no idea if this is right, but it's how it feels to me when I play.
Jennifer
Adult learner, Grade 3
Equipment: Yamaha Custom CX Bb, Fobes 10K CF mp,
Legere Bb clarinet European Cut #2.5, Vandoren Optimum German Lig.
Post Edited (2023-02-28 20:50)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2023-02-28 21:27
Hi All,
I was band director for about 20 years a very long time ago (1963-80) and have started a very large number of clarinetists in those years as well as when I continued to teach privately. During that time, new students in my care started with a student clarinet and mouthpiece from either Selmer, Buffet, or LeBlanc. The reed of choice at the time was a brown box 2 or 2 1/2 Rico.
When more advanced students began to show a need for upgrades, a Luban or Bonade ligature was usually next with a possible mouthpiece change to a Selmer HS** or even a Vandoren. There were also some nice choices from Buffet and a handful of others (Stoll Wells Schneider, Sumner, Woodwind...). It was a pretty simple time but somehow, everyone was able to get their Superior ratings at Contest. The exceptional ones might also get an R13, Selmer Series 9, or LeBlanc Symphony clarinet.
I have always been a believer in the Law or Parsimony or "the simplest answer is usually the best answer." Perhaps staying with the "bulletproof" student clarinet that comes with a stock student mouthpiece is still the way to go for beginners. Wait to conquer the clarinet world until later.
HRL
PS At the time, I was playing a Buffet R13 with Portnoy BP02 and a modified Bonade ligature with 3 1/2 VanDoren reeds (we only had the little plastic box). I still have all that stuff except the R13.
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Author: Johnny Galaga
Date: 2023-03-01 23:53
I also disagree with the B45. That is a higher-resistance mouthpiece that is not appropriate for a beginner.
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2023-03-02 06:39
I'm joining the chorus. Stay away from the B45 and get a Debut or Overture if you want something different from what you have.
Is a Ferrari a better car than a Honda Civic? That depends on who is driving it and under what circumstances. It certainly costs much more! Is the Ferrari a good car to use while still learning the basics of how to drive - not at all. Learn to drive a Civic really well and then shop for what will serve you best based on what you've learned about your playing/driving in the meantime. Maybe you'll discover what you like most is driving on dirt roads. The Ferrari would not be the car for that at all. The Honda would be objectively better, and a four wheel drive better still. You won't discover these things if you insist on a Ferrari early on.
Get a reliable general use mouthpiece and give it a couple years - or don't. It's your money. Better still find a good lessons teacher whose guidance you'll trust and follow and spend the money there. That would be money well spent if you want to end up playing well.
Anders
Post Edited (2023-03-02 06:40)
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2023-03-02 20:37
BD5 is a very good mouthpiece. Best to stay with it the coming years.
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Author: ofer
Date: 2023-03-04 11:18
thanks again SunnyDaze,
I bought the 10k CF mouthpiece.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-03-04 12:47
Fantastic. I hope you enjoy it as much as I do.
If you would like to know how I got to that choice, it was this thread here: http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=500122&t=500072
I had to have my clarinet leak-proofed as well, before I really got up and running. I hadn't realised that my clarinet was leaking like a sieve.
Adult learner, Grade 3
Equipment: Yamaha Custom CX Bb, Fobes 10K CF mp,
Legere Bb clarinet European Cut #2.5, Vandoren Optimum German Lig.
Post Edited (2023-03-04 12:51)
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-03-04 21:44
Im not sure that there really IS such a thing as a good mouthpiece for beginners, or at least it's better not seen that way. The search for the right mouthpiece is better seen as the search for a combination of mouthpiece and reed that will provide a blowing resistance and response that a given individual is comfortable with. That's a good starting point . But it means that not all beginners will have joy with the same mouthpiece . And if as a beginner you want a combination of mouthpiece and reed with lower resistance ,don't go for the " large tip opening , free blowing " nonsense . Whoever wrote that forgot to use a reed when they tried it .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: sonicbang
Date: 2023-03-06 11:57
Julian,
I think you make a good point with pairing any mouthpiece with a reed that gives the right amount of working resistance for the specific player.
However, I would avoid any extremities, if for eg. a B45 lyre is given to a beginner, they may find the right amount of resistance with a #1.5 or #2 reed. That will soon prove to be insufficient if they proceed to the 2nd register. Not to mention the advanced air support that is a must for more open mouthpieces. Stability and intonation will be miserable and this can lead to bad habits when trying to overcome the difficulties of a non-efficient setup.
Why not using a middle-of-the-road mouthpiece in the 1.03-1.10 tip range with a medium-medium long facing with a #2.5 - #3 reed and see where the player's preference goes after they developed a solid foundation and a sound concept?
Yes, it's hard to tell which mouthpiece is the *best for beginners, but it's easier to tell what is not good for them. And I would clearly advise against open, resistant mouthpieces that require an advanced air support and a well-developed embouchure.
Mark
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-03-06 18:00
Do you ever see adult beginners who have really strong lungs and embouchure muscles already when they start? (For example a really hefty bloke who has been smoking, and so has worked the muscles of the lips - and then tries to take up jazz clarinet.)
I suppose those people might struggle with a very closed tip, but possibly it would just mean that they need a harder reed?
I do not have very strong lungs or embouchure, which is why a closed tip suits me I think.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2023-03-07 21:21
Attachment: bell-curve.jpg (8k)
Hi All,
As I ponder this query from the OP, I am struck by the relationship between the distribution of mouthpiece preference across a sample and how closely that distribution might mirror a mesokurtic (Bell Shaped) curve. See the attached diagram that I labeled to reflect the opening of clarinet mouthpieces likely in a large enough population.
You can see that 95% of the expected sample would likely play an "average" mouthpiece while the rest would use a very close or open mouthpiece. While my hypothesis may or may not be supported by a sample, it is something a little different to think about in statistical terms.
For my fellow statisticians out there, the null hypothesis is "there is no difference,,," I am aware that a Type I or Type II error is likely.
HRL
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-03-08 00:54
Yes !..... after I posted my comment on this subject I thought that what I wrote was a bit dumb and unhelpful . There ARE certain mouthpieces that are likely to suit the beginner and that's all the author of this topic was asking about .
To try to offer something that might actually BE helpful advice to beginners , I would urge trying a good synthetic reed ( and by good I mean a Legere ) because they have the advantage over cane reeds of offering consistency and eliminating a variability factor that can be confounding . Given that one of these reeds will last you about eight months they're not really expensive . My wife uses a Legere European cut on her bass clarinet because , not only is it trouble free , but it's response and tone seem superior to a natural reed on that horn .
I'm not entering into the synthetic vs natural reed debate other than to say that I think that sythetic reeds can be a good option for beginners because they help to reduce that " is this problem I'm having me ...or my setup ?" gray area .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-03-08 01:40
Hi Julian,
Synthetics are so great for teaching because they are washable. It helps very much when I need to pass a reed and mp back and forth and be able to wash the whole shebang in between.
I totally get what you are saying about consistency in Legeres. The one difficulty for me is that they only go down to a 2 strength and I think quite a lot of people need to start on something softer.
For beginners going synthetic, I quite like the Fibracell reeds. They go down to 1 strength and play quite well. For me, the sound is not super-beautiful, but the notes sound reliably, which I think is a great encouragement to a new starter.
The thing I think can be disheartening about the clarinet is that sometimes the note will just not sound at all, and then the player can feel like a failure and give up, which is where a super-soft reed might help.
With hindsight, I wish I'd asked for more information about the OP here before responding. It's so exciting always to try and help, and I forget that I might be making asumptions that are totally incorrect.
Jennifer
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-03-08 20:22
I hadn't actually noticed that Legere don't go down below a 2 , although the blowing resistance of a given reed strength will vary greatly depending on the resistance curve of the mouthpiece facing being used .
I rather wish when describing mouthpieces , they would say ' high medium and low resistance faced ' , rather than open, medium and small tip opening ', as I think that would be clearer to people in search of the right blowing resistances, and the fact that an open tip is actually a high resistance mouthpiece is a bit counter intuitive.
To return to the matter of beginners and mouthpieces, hopefully better expressed than I did before .When we starts on clarinet, I think we tend to go for a period of time a bit like that prince with his glass slipper in search of his Cinderella reed/ mouthpiece combination . I think that most clarinetist have a drawer with a number of ultimately disfavoured mouthpieces to show for this quest . Not that these are the Ugly sisters , they are no doubt good mouthpieces and often expensive but.....they are not their Cinderella and the "And they lived happily ever after. " wasn't quite working out with them .....So ..for anyone who can somewhow take their glass slipper instrument to somewhere that they try it on the foot of as many potential Cinderellas' as possible. They will live happily for ever more sooner. ( and without a drawer full of the Ugly ...but expensive Cinderella sisters !)
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2023-03-09 00:10
Hi All,
Excuse me but I thought this thread was about mouthpieces for beginners.
IMHO, individuals who have taught beginners have valuable information to share on this subject. To opine on the topic when one does not have a real frame of reference could be considered counterproductive. And diverging into a discussion about synthetic reeds seems off topic.
Let's get back on the subject of the thread, please.
HRL
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-03-09 11:37
Hi Hank ,
I was not trying to undermine the idea that if your music teacher or some other person knowledgable in the matter recommends a certain mouthpiece to you that this does not have its merits as an educated guess . I definitely does .
But it you have the opportunity to go ,taking your instrument, to a music store with decent professionals to help you, and try the mouthpiece your teacher has recommended to you and also some other potential candidates, then this is the best I think. You may well leave the store with the very same mouthpiece your teacher recommended , but the difference is that YOU chose it and now have a more confident frame of reference from having tried some others .
However good your teacher is they're not you .
My mention of the potential benefits of starting with a good synthetic reed was because I think that the matter of mouthpieces and reeds goes pretty cheek to cheek . When you separate them neither works .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-03-09 11:51
Hi Julian,
I totally agree that it's best to try several mps. The main thing I was trying to say in my initial posts was that the good manufacturers and shops well send out several to try all at once. I think that is the very best way - well the only good way really.
I realise that I am not a teacher, so I only have narrow experience. However, as a 40-something learner, I feel as though I can tell people what it is like to be a leaner, in a way that a ten year old can't. I think that must have value, especially for other adult learners who are coming along a few years behind me.
I realise more and more that I need to pick my words carefully though. I'm still learning that part too.
Jennifer
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-03-09 13:27
Hi Jennifer.
Well!...so long as everybody presents their conflicting ideas in a way that's interesting for all, then it's all good and potentially helpful and what the forum is all about . There are some real sharks on this forum but you're not one of them ...believe me .
I think that the clarinet is one of those instruments that, as a beginner ,one tends to be a bit at sea with and the difficulties encountered. You're there thinking.
" Is this me ?.....or a leaky pad ?...or is this mouthpiece not right for me ?....or is this a bad reed ?......should I pull it up a little because it's gone soft ?...etc....etc ! ".
So getting a mouthpiece that you FEEL confident about is one doubt eliminator.
It's above having the right mouthpiece but not feeling convinced that you do .
I also offered the suggestion of using a synthetic reed rather than being up against the inconsistent performance issues of natural cane reeds for the same basic reason ......It's another doubt eliminator !
Eventually one learns how to diagnose all these issues , but initially they tend to add doubts and frustrations on top of the challenges of mastering playing technique .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: sonicbang
Date: 2023-03-09 14:33
I like Julian's idea about categorizing mouthpieces based on the overall resistance. Of course, resistance is a sum of many different factors and the facing is only one of them. Rail thickness, distance between the rails, window shape, baffle contour, throat & bore configuration etc all come into play.
Vandoren blue box reeds have been around for many decades now, and the basic design is more or less the same. Since #3 is quite a middle-of-the-road in terms is strength, I would say we could create a scale of 5, using VD blue box #3 as a reference point. 1 being extremely free-blowing while the upper notes are still stable and 5 being the highest amount of resistance that is still reasonably playable in softer dynamics.
Of course the scale can be projected for any reed strength, let's say a given mouthpiece has a resistance level of 3 with a #3 reed but it's a 5 with a #3.5. Or it's 2 with a #2.5. Of course the right amount of resistance can vary from player to player, but I think an average could be determined given we have enough empirical data from a representative sample of players.
This categorization would be helpful not only for beginners, but more advanced players too.
Mark
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-03-09 16:03
Hi Julian,
Thanks so much for your kind reply. I do very much agree that the clarinet can be difficult at the beginning just because there are so many technical hitches just to getting a sound out. I'm so glad to try carefully to offer the things that I can contribute.
Mark - I think that's a really interesting idea about rating the mp + reed combination together.
Separately - I was thinking a little more about how we can understand the needs of adult beginners who come to the forum, since we can't see them and often know so little about them.
I was thinking in particular about how to assess the strength of their embouchure and air stream.
I wondered if it would make sense to ask new starters questions like this:
1) Can/do you whistle?
2) Can you blow up a balloon easily, or at all?
It might be that the people like me who can't, need a really close mp and soft reed. Perhaps the ones who can whistle a taxi at a 100 yards and blow up a truck tyre could be encouraged towards a hard reed and open mp? With the caveat that they then go and try a dozen via their local supplier.
I wondered if that seems helpful at all, for the quite frequent occassions when we get 40-something aged starters looking for advice?
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Author: kdk
Date: 2023-03-09 18:09
sonicbang wrote:
> Of course the scale can be projected for any reed strength,
> let's say a given mouthpiece has a resistance level of 3 with a
> #3 reed but it's a 5 with a #3.5. Or it's 2 with a #2.5. Of
> course the right amount of resistance can vary from player to
> player, but I think an average could be determined given we
> have enough empirical data from a representative sample of
> players.
>
> This categorization would be helpful not only for beginners,
> but more advanced players too.
Do you think this might be a little complicated for a beginner with no frame of reference of his own? I find it confusing on first read, and I'm 60 years beyond my first beginner experience.
Karl
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Author: kdk
Date: 2023-03-09 18:33
SunnyDaze wrote:
> Separately - I was thinking a little more about how we can
> understand the needs of adult beginners who come to the forum,
> since we can't see them and often know so little about them.
>
> I was thinking in particular about how to assess the strength
> of their embouchure and air stream.
>
I suspect if the target of the advice is an over-40 beginner (not a transfer from another wind instrument), we can assume there is no "embouchure" strength, although the level of unrefined, unfocused muscular strength around the mouth may be quite variable.
> I wondered if it would make sense to ask new starters questions
> like this:
>
> 1) Can/do you whistle?
>
Maybe refine this - some of the loudest whistlers I know use their tongue between their teeth to create an aperture - their lips. as far as I know, play little or no part.
> 2) Can you blow up a balloon easily, or at all?
>
> It might be that the people like me who can't, need a really
> close mp and soft reed.
Maybe. It's very possible to go too far and create a combination that closes off if you just look at it.
> Perhaps the ones who can whistle a taxi
> at a 100 yards and blow up a truck tyre could be encouraged
> towards a hard reed and open mp?
This part doesn't follow at all. Because a beginner can overpower the resistance of a hard-blowing setup doesn't at all make that a good way to play.
I confess that, having just been through two cataract surgeries (my right eye just yesterday), my computer reading time has been limited for a couple of weeks and I haven't had the time to read everything in this thread (or others), so I've sort of picked this point to butt in without all the context, which can be dangerous. Some earlier posts may have addressed these concerns.
Karl
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-03-09 20:31
Hi Karl,
Thanks for commenting on my ideas. The rest of the thread wasn't needed for context, and it's really helpful to know your thoughts on that.
It sounds as though the advice is still "try lots of mps" and find a teacher.
I hope your cataract surgery helps. That sounds like quite a week.
Jennifer
Adult learner, Grade 3
Equipment: Yamaha Custom CX Bb, Fobes 10K CF mp,
Legere Bb clarinet European Cut #2.5, Vandoren Optimum German Lig.
Post Edited (2023-03-09 20:34)
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-03-09 22:50
Yes !..... I love to see people thinking creatively and bouncing around ideas , especially to help others .
There is a series of videos on YouTube by Tom Ridenour titled
" The clarinet mouthpiece revealed ".
If ever was anyone qualified to talk on this subject it's Tom .
I highly recommend watching this . Tom may be a bit of an odd fish ,but he's also something of a genius and very much a straight shooter .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: sonicbang
Date: 2023-03-10 23:58
Karl,
I don't see why this concept would be complicated. What a player would see on a mouthpiece's box is that a particular mouthpiece has a resistance level of 4 with a #3.5 reed and a level of 3 with a #3, and a resistance level of 2 with a #2.5 reed.
Let's assume it's not optimal for a beginner to play above resistance level 2
So they can try that mouthpiece with #2.5 reeds which would likely be a good combination for their level. Or, if the teacher suggests even softer reeds, like #2, then it's probably a good idea to find a mouthpiece that plays with on a res. level of 2 with a #2 reed.
Maybe it's not possible to implement this for practical reasons, but I would not call complicated the idea itself.
Mark
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-03-11 00:17
Hi Julian,
Thank you so much for your kind reply again. I really appreciate it. I will watch the video. I hadn't realised until recently what a huge difference a mp could make, and I'm keen to learn more now.
Jennifer
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-03-11 01:22
Hi Jennifer,
You are most welcome and strike me as a very charming person .
Hi Mark ,
I definitly agree with you that mouthpiece marketing seems very weak in offering much coherent guide information to the buyer . Vandoren just seem to say something to have said something ,and if I read it ....its to have read something ....but I'm not sure what !
I don't really know enough about the complexities of mouthpieces to know if they could reasonably be categorized to help the buyer ,but if they could it would be great . It's something in which I'm sure there is room for improvements .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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The Clarinet Pages
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