 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ChuChu
Date: 2023-02-25 18:10
Every major clarinet manufacturer it seems wants 8,000-10,000 dollars for their Bb and A clarinets. There is a serious problem here. These clarinets can't cost that much to make. I am tired of seeing these prices. I don't want to bankrupt myself trying to buy a good pro clarinet. I also fear buying a clarinet at these prices as many fail due to cracks or other problems. It cannot cost this much because of exchange rates in the USA as prices are high all over the world. It makes me much less hesitant of even thinking about buying clarinets. This is definitely some sort of a rip-off money making scheme. Problem is these manufacturers like Buffet, Selmer, Yamaha, Backun don't understand economics. High prices when the demand is not very high. Something is not right here. What are your thoughts on this trend?
Post Edited (2023-02-25 18:22)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-02-25 18:42
What boils my piss is the price of high end Buffets when they're as poorly made and finished as they are. I cast my eye over a Legend the other week and besides all the fancy designer-like carrying bag, case and case cover and the low F correction key, the overall build quality isn't any better than an E13 or dare I say it, a Prodige as they're using the same peel'n'stick self adhesive foam key 'corks'. Also the owner isn't impressed with it as it plays around 20 cents flat. This is ridiculous. SORT YOURSELVES OUT!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2023-02-25 23:24)
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Author: ChuChu
Date: 2023-02-25 19:09
Yeah, most Legend and other high-end Buffets and Prestige level models Buffet play like crap. It is by total luck that a clarinet will sound good, play in tune and respond well and built to high quality. I reject over 95 percent of clarinets. But because the prices are so high I cannot even consider buying these models. Buffet E13 is good model but not available in A or C.
Post Edited (2023-02-25 19:11)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-02-25 19:14
I think there is a real problem with people selling things that look like clarinets, but which clearly are just garbage.
If we could pin down which items are actually playable instruments, that would help a lot.
I know the docs always say "take your teacher to the shop" but plenty of people can't get to the shop in person, or their teacher can't accompany them.
I think it would be doing the world a great service if the folks on this forum could put together a checklist of tests that prospective buyers should carry out on an instrument before buying.
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2023-02-25 20:01
It is just corporate markups. Take barrels for example, they are mass produced on cnc equipment and the piece of wood is relatively small. Why do they still cost 250-350 dollars? The high end delrin and hard rubber ones are worse, they contain literally .50 worth of material.
There is also the issue of marking up instruments imported to the US. The prices between britain and the us aren't even close.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-02-25 20:20
I purchased a barrel from Martin Freres at a point before they discovered markup. They charged $40 to custom turn a barrel out of an exotic wood. When I received it, they had also sent along a gift of one of their ligatures which looked like a BG Revelation only the pouch was real leather and the interior of the ligature was also lined with real leather.
hmmmmm
A few years later when I went back to the website to order another bargain barrel, they were selling for $400.00 dollars.
HOWEVER, I'd like to take the tack that companies are entitled to make enough profit to stay in business and continue to provide quality made merchandise. In a world where a dozen eggs now costs close to $8.00 an $8,000 clarinet doesn't sound so bad. The OTHER way to look at the situation is that for only a few thousand dollars more one can wait seven years to get a hand tooled clarinet from Wurlitzer or Gerold.......and avoid the "quality issues."
Yes, you can always charge more for something that is not worth the price, but you CANNOT make something great for cheap money. Quality materials and the man hours of craftsmanship come with a price.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: ChuChu
Date: 2023-02-25 20:55
No reason the prices for these mass-produced clarinets should be this high. This is prohibitively expensive. I want to buy a high-end high-quality clarinet, but prices are too high. These are corporate gangsters trying to rip you off. Playing clarinet at a high level has become expensive now for a while.
I have no problem with Vandoren, however. They produce high quality goods at decent prices. They are a good company.
From,
Fort Lee, New Jersey
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2023-02-25 22:12
how many extra hours of labor go into a tosca divine or legende compared to an r13? Even if they are charging several hundred dollars per hour, there is no way the difference is justified.
Also why are green lines the same price as regular wood? If we are paying a premium price for select aged wood then the green line should be much much cheaper since it is is sawdust and glue.
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Author: ChuChu
Date: 2023-02-25 22:23
Yeah, Selmer Paris is charging about 16,000 dollars for the Model 67 Pro Low C Bass clarinet. Bass clarinets are a lot of work and difficult to make. But the Selmer Bass clarinet is about 2,500 dollars. The huge price difference doesn't make any sense.
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Author: ChuChu
Date: 2023-02-25 22:43
Ask a Buffet rep for the reason for these outrageous prices. The prices are way out of line.
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Author: tucker ★2017
Date: 2023-02-25 22:52
I remember a string on here about the prices of Selmer's bass clarinet mouthpieces. Now the Focus and Concept are around $420 and their contrabass mouthpiece is over $700!
WHY are they charging so much, you ask?
Because they can.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-02-25 23:47
You never see oboes, d'amores or cors anglais from the major oboe makers made with such slap-dash quality. Yeah I know with first hand experience that oboes are more complex instruments, but that doesn't mean such a relatively simple instrument like a boutique level Bb or A clarinet with relatively standard keywork, having far fewer parts than most student level oboes should command around the same cost as a pro level oboe or even some pro level bass clarinets.
The cost would be justified if they were as hand finished as oboes are rather than all the parts coming together, effectively prefabricated at the point of finishing which for clarinets means key and screw fitting, seating the already padded and 'corked' keys, spring tension adjustment and regulating them. Finishing (final assembly) time on a pro or prestige level oboe is well over 20 hours - I bet you anything that finishing time on any pro, prestige or boutique level Buffet clarinet is a mere fraction of that.
While that may be cost effective on entry level and intermediate models, it's cutting corners on their high end models just to make a profit. Then increase the models in the lineup and you've effectively wiped out the competition - this is why many small volume makers ceased clarinet production as they simply couldn't compete with the dominance of the large volume makers who offer multiple levels of clarinets to suit any price range.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: paulyb
Date: 2023-02-25 23:53
The unfortunate reality is that enough people are willing to pay that much for these products. If they cut the price by 20% how many more would they sell? To maintain the same profit it would need to be significantly *more* than 20% more items sold since the 20% price cut would come from their profit margin.
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Author: ChuChu
Date: 2023-02-26 00:04
Sad fact is most high-end clarinets, Buffets, Selmers, etc play like absolute crap in my experience. I have to go to a factory to try at least 20 of the same models. This is ridiculous. There is no quality control. It is pure luck you find a good instrument. The workers do not know what they are doing. They are getting paid minimum wage and most are not very skilled. This whole clarinet business is a complete rip off at the high end.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-02-26 00:30
I’ve found Yamaha and Uebel to be pretty consistent from horn to horn (and the Uebel Advantage is still a bargain!).
As for Vandoren, is $500 ok for their Carbon fiber ligature?
…………Paul Aviles
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-02-26 00:44
This does explain a lot about what I saw, when I went to buy a good clarinet.
I tested five instruments all at around £2500. They were all producing a dead sound, with no resonance, except for the much cheaper Yamaha Custom CX which produced a lovely resonant sound (£1880).
I asked the man in the shop why the more expensive ones didn't sound better, and he said that the more expensive instruments would only produce a good sound in the hands of an expert.
But then I went to see a pro player and asked her to evaluate the Custom CX I had on loan. She said she'd recently spent £6500 on a pair of new clarinets and was really disappointed with them.
She said she really wanted to buy the Custom CX but felt under pressure to buy more expensive ones, because of being a pro. She said she'd never got the more expensive ones to play nicely and wished she'd never sold her B&H pair. The pro that I talked to was not local to me, in case anyone is trying to guess who is was. I was away on holiday.
It starts to make more sense to me now, hearing what you say on this thread.
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Author: paulyb
Date: 2023-02-26 01:06
I was curious about how much above inflation clarinet prices have risen. According to the post below, my Buffet DG was listed at £1975 in 1993 (which is about what I remember it costing). A UK inflation calculator says that £3890 is the equivalent price in early 2023. Howarths have Buffet Prestige models (which were priced the same as the DG in the UK) at £4235, which is about 9% above inflation.
What has changed significantly since 1993 is the large number of even higher-end clarinets on the market at ever higher prices.
Thread about DG prices:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=298669&t=298459
(Thanks to Chris P for posting the information from the Myatt catalogue)
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Author: kilo
Date: 2023-02-26 02:21
Quote:
Also why are green lines the same price as regular wood?
This is a pet peeve of mine, especially in the Prestige bass where the inflated cost really shows up.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-02-26 02:36
It also annoys the crap out of me that both Howarth and Marigaux made clarinets and couldn't compete with the likes of Buffet and threw in the towel as it wasn't profitable for them to produce instruments which should have cost more than they did, but they kept their prices down despite the relatively high production costs (as they were all individually handmade and finished like their oboes) just to be competitive.
It's a real kick in the teeth when people blindly go out and buy an RC or R13 because that's what everyone else plays or that's what their teacher told them to get rather than finding something they might actually enjoy playing.
Working on Buffets has become far too routine for me as it's the same old problems I'm having to deal with every time one comes in which I've never previously worked on. Yes I put the time and effort into what I do (with some limitations during a general service or full-on going to town during a full overhaul), but I wish they also did that too instead of churning out clarinets with all the same old problems for someone else to sort out at the owners' expense.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2023-02-26 02:44
Yes, what Paul says. Enough people are willing to pay the price. One person in our band paid $6K for a new R13 (that would be $8K for me in Canada) That was like 6+ years ago. I will not be one of those people. I paid $2K for my new R13 in 1999 and thought that was high. It will be my last pro clarinet purchase. It needs a tune up this year, after 24 years. Before that I paid $520 C for my new one in 1979 and $250 US for my first one in 1971. It's crazy. Inflation hasn't gone up 400% since 1999.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-02-26 04:20
Follow up on Tom's post. In 2015 (last time I was tasked with pricing clarinets for my Army band) $3500 was the best price. If you follow the progress of "the chart," I think we're on par.
Anyone try to by a new car lately?
It ain't just horns.
And I did want to address the "pro horn" enigma. I had written recently about my inability to play some Backuns and Selmers. There is what I'd call an "air resistance" curve that made very soft throat notes shut down on those horns for me. So you do have to find a horn that plays well for the way YOU play.
...............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2023-02-26 04:23)
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Author: ChuChu
Date: 2023-02-26 05:51
These companies are under control of investment bank firms that want to make a huge profit. That is what is driving up the prices. An 8,000-10,000-dollar mass produced Buffet, Selmer Paris Bb and A clarinet probably cost less than 1,000 dollars to make my guess, but I do not know the true cost to make one. These outside firm that control these companies are making the quality control and the prices worse. It is a near a disaster in my opinion. I go to a clarinet fair and 95 percent play like crap.
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2023-02-26 07:44
Very easy answer (one that paulyb provided earlier and supported by Tom H):
Question: Why are clarinets so expensive now?
Answer: Because enough people are willing to pay that price to make it profitable.
Furthermore, many teachers, educators, and online sources encourage such purchases; convincing the young and/or ignorant that these new, high-priced options will deliver a certain quality that will otherwise be missed...will help them attain the "next step" more easily, or otherwise allow them to progress past their peers. Maybe they won't even fit in with their section if they own an older model or different style....nudge, nudge.
Ya gotta get that "ping" or "ring" to the sound, right?
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2023-02-26 09:34
It is a little weird. I bought a certain model clarinet in the late 90s for $3000. Based on an inflation calculator it would be about $5400 now. The exact same model now costs between $3900 and $7900 depending on where... strange. All converted to $US and without tax for comparison.
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2023-02-26 09:45
Cars are very expensive now, yes. Add $15-20K C if you live in Canada. But cars were expensive for a long long time. Consider that I paid $5,300 C for my new Honda Civic in 1980. What did that car cost even just a decade later? It probably cost $1K in 1970.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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Author: ChuChu
Date: 2023-02-26 10:04
You people don't get it. Income levels have not increased this much to compensate for the skyrocketing prices of some goods. The clarinet market is mostly controlled by these French companies that don't have a fair idea of pricing. You can't compare a car to a clarinet. A clarinet is simple to make. Like I said, people are getting ripped off buying pro level clarinets. It is a bad situation.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-02-26 11:51
If the clarinet community made a review site or something like that, giving commentary on which horns are worth buying, would that help to put pressure in the other direction? It seems as though community power can be significant, with the internet added in.
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2023-02-26 12:38
ChuChu,
"You people don't get it."
Perhaps...but then again - (and with all due respect) you're the one who asked the question. If you've already winowed out which answers are acceptable - why ask the question?
"Problem is these manufacturers like Buffet, Selmer, Yamaha, Backun don't understand economics." - The fact that these companies still exist after multiple decades (over a century in some cases?) seems to counter your argument.
I agree folks are getting ripped off. Willingly? Ignorantly? Doesn't matter - it is their money to do with what they want.
One thing is certain...if folks quit buying the clarinets, then the sellers would either need to change or be forced to bankruptcy. People are still buying the clarinets, though.
There are cheaper (new) high-quality clarinets out there for people to buy. There's even a wide-open used marketplace.
I agree with Chris P in that the problem with people getting ripped off is in the quality of the end product. If something is being marketed and sold as a specific quality, then it should be that quality.
In a broader context, my suggestion to folks would be:
"Buy a quality instrument that makes you happy and does what you need it to do, then...be happy.
Whether that costs you $100 at an estate sale or $50,000 at the boutique on the corner. As long as it is within your means and it will meet your needs - go for it!"
My anger (to the extent I have any anger on this issue at all) would be focused more towards the folks who encourage young or naive clarinetists to purchase above their means, thus artificially propping up high pricing while leading folks into stressful financial situations or angst that a desired model is "out of their reach" and that their personal future success will be limited as a result. That gets my dander up a bit.
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-02-26 15:51
Wouldn't it be possible to write a buyer's guide, to help people in this situation?
I mean most clarinet are bought by people who are trying to go a step up, and so they are all operating a bit out of their depth. I think a help guide would really be a useful thing, and for those who have already gone through the process, it wouldn't be that hard to write.
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Author: jim sclater
Date: 2023-02-26 18:16
"Fuzzy" mentions the "wide-open used clarinet market." This is a great way to beat the prices for new instruments. I bought used "Golden era" R 13s in 1968 and used them my entire career in a community orchestra. Subsequently I have bought used instruments and have been very pleased.
jsclater@comcast.net
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Author: Djudy
Date: 2023-02-26 18:50
Go vintage ! Who wants to hold back for 6 months blowing in a new clarinet and under the constant threat that it will crack if you even look at it sideways?! Aside from that is the 'known' quality of a vintage instrument, if it rings go for it, if not give it up as hopeless, no waiting to find out down the road 2 years that you don't like the way it's played in. Yes you need to be sure it plays at your diapson, that the keywork is if not modern then doable for your technigque level, that the character will blend with those you play with (no Selmer BT or Leblanc Pete Fountaine or honky Silver King in the clarinet choir!) but these are true for new instruments too (ex. the differences in key mapping between Selmer harmony instruments and the rest for example). And you don't have to go too far back to get a good used instrument, especially if you buy it from a player who has done a good job on maintining it; I have 2 early '00 instruments for my group work that were less than half the price of new and that work fine, I am tempeted to say "like new" but with clarinets that is never really what you want !
As to the question of why Greenline is as expensive as solid wood, it's probably like why are baby shoes as expensive as adult models : the reason is in the tools/machines needed and the number of production steps and skills needed to do them, not the cost of the material.
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Author: kilo
Date: 2023-02-26 18:59
Quote:
...the reason is in the tools/machines needed and the number of production steps and skills needed to do them, not the cost of the material.
You're probably right there. I've heard that composites can be difficult to machine. But there's also the tendency of many buyers to assume a direct relationship between quality and pricing. Offering a GreenLine for significantly less that the price of a wooden model might tend to make people think they were getting less – got to protect the brand! On the other hand, Royal Global, looking to get into the market, prices its composite Max model for $3000 less than the wooden Polaris it's based on.
Post Edited (2023-02-26 19:03)
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2023-02-26 21:26
Sunnydaze,
I'm not certain I understand the idea of a buying guide. What metrics/measures would be contained in such a buying guide?
As mentioned by Chris P - even the supposed "top notch" new instruments can be in terrible shape. How could a guide help in that context?
Instruments are very individual. That's why (when purchasing new - even after a person has decided on a specific make and model) it is recommended to try several of that make/model and pick the one you like best. I'm not sure how a guide might address that.
As for the "step up" crowd. My opinion might sound harsh, and I don't intend it to...but in most cases if the student is being held back by equipment, then any "step up" will be self-evident when the student is presented with the "step up."
I feel there's entirely too much trepidation about gear in the clarinet world. Life's too dear to waste it on that kind of stress and anxiety. There is no single "right" answer when it comes to gear. It is an individual thing. My recommendation would be: unless you're one of the (comparatively) very few folks playing clarinet in a uniform professional clarinet section where a specific make/model is demanded...play what makes you happiest and brings the biggest smile to your face...and to the faces of those you play with/for.
Cheers,
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-02-26 21:33
This debate reminds me rather of Gibson guitars ,who basically went belly- up years ago ,but got baled out because ..well..they were GIBSON !. They had been resting on their laurels , their prices were still very high but their build quality was dropping and they failed to notice that other upcoming manufactures were offering higher quality for less and moving with the times. It's kind of the story of the collapse of empires historically . I think that people are prepared to pay top dollar in return for one thing and one thing only ...... That they get the best possible quality....That's the deal !
A friend of mind bought a new BMW many years ago but returned it the same day for a full refund . He had been leaning casually on the front wing for a photo when the wing just buckled in . The dealers apologized profusely saying the wing was defective and would of course be replaced immediately , but my friend was disgusted that such a thing should be posssible at all on such a high end car and demanded his money back . And frankly I think his position on the matter rather hits the nail on the head . That being said , if Buffet were now owned by BMW we probably wouldn't be seeing a decay in their build standards .
I think that sadly, it's time that the name 'Buffet' not nesecarily be regarded as synonymous with the best quality available, even if it's prices and historic reputation infer that it is .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-02-26 23:32
PS.
My wife bought the Ridenour Lyrique bass clarinet from Leslie Craven a while back . Les is the UK based European distributor of these horns although now he's selling them under his own brand name ' Craven Sonoro ' . He's a very affable and chatty guy and it came out in our conversations that before he came to sell these Tom Ridenour design,hard rubber horns in his retirement , he had been playing them exclusively during his final years as first clarinet for the Welsh National Opera . I only mention this because I think it casts into question the notion that " If it isn't wood....it isn't good!". I believe that now quite a number of professional musicians have discarded their high end ' Holy Trinity' horns as converts to clarinets such as Tom's ' 'Liberta'.
I have no opinion on these matters myself ,although I have no doubt that a lot of people will buy a wooden clarinet on the assumption that that's what they should be doing to get a certain level of quality , an assumption that may now be a myth....and an overpriced one .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Djudy
Date: 2023-02-27 17:13
If an ebonite clarinet could go the way my "stinky" Charles Bay mps have, I would never take the risk there either ! That said, all materials have their drawbacks so pick your poison.
As to the debate about quality at Buffet, a lot of professionals still are delighted to play their instruments and praise them and I was totally convinced by the delightful playing and the comfort of the Divine model but I sadly can't justify the price. Checking the recent used instrument posts, I've seen lots of Tradition, Festival and RC for sale (talking Buffet only here), a very few Tosca, one Legend and NO Divine. That says something beyond just volume of sales to me.
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Author: ChuChu
Date: 2023-02-27 17:36
Going to the used clarinet route to avoid paying the high price for a new clarinet has never worked for me. It seems all the used clarinets are sold because the instrument is bad or has some serious problems. I have never had any success trying to buy cheaper used because most sellers are trying to get rid of their unwanted clarinets. And most times they still want like half to 3/4 of a new version. We haave to put pressure on Buffet and Selmer-Paris to bring the prices down.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-02-27 19:11
Hi Fuzzy,
I think it's a really lovely thing to say that people should play what makes them happy, and I do agree, that it is so much the key with clarinet playing. When I chose my clarinet, it was very clear to me which was the best in my hands, just as much as it is when I test a mouthpiece.
I suppose the tricky thing is for those people who can't get to a shop to test several and I suppose that is a very hard problem, because there is such variation even between models.
The things that I was thinking we could say in the test guide would be:
1) Does it fit your hands? (and are your hands still growing.)
2) Can you reach all the keys without moving your wrists, and if not, can the keys be adapted so that you can? Learners might not know that this matters, and they are most likely to be buying an instrument.
3) Does it play in tune with itself all across the range? Take a tuner. (as a violin and piano player I assumed that clarinets all did this, and it was quite a shock to me to discover that some don't.)
4) Do you like the sound, and does the sound make you feel good?
5) Does your chief audience member like the sound (Mum, Dad, Spouse, the cat etc.)
6) Do you have a good mp that works for you, and did you take it to the shop to test all the instruments?
7) If the entire instrument plays flat or sharp for you, can a longer/shorter barrel be provided to bring it into tune at least until you are experienced enough to do it yourself?
8) If used, is it a high pitch or low pitch instrument?
9) Is the instrument leaking and can it be fixed? New players can get very excited about beautiful vintage instruments, and they may not realise that whilst violins may age like a fine wine, clarinets age rather more like a bicycle.
That's the sort of thing I had in mind.
Jennifer
Adult learner, Grade 3
Equipment: Yamaha Custom CX Bb, Fobes 10K CF mp,
Legere Bb clarinet European Cut #2.5, Vandoren Optimum German Lig.
Post Edited (2023-02-27 19:11)
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Author: LostConn
Date: 2023-02-27 22:02
Two comments on this discussion:
1. Too much emphasis is being placed on the cost of raw materials as a driver of the price of finished clarinets. (For example, this perspective is inherent in the question about Greenline vs. grenadilla Buffets.) R&D, labor, factory expenses, administration and overhead, marketing and sales -- collectively, these costs matter far more than the current price of wood. Certainly, raw materials are not free, but trying to analyze clarinet prices by breaking down the costs of the "ingredients" will lead nowhere.
2. Professional clarinets come in different price/quality tiers. Just looking at two leading manufacturers, for example, we find these options:
Entry-level pro: Buffet Gala; Backun Protege
Mainline pro: Buffet R13, RC; Backun Q
Artist: Buffet Divine, Tosca; Backun MoBA, Lumiere
Buffet's lineup is so extensive that it also includes models that fall between what I'm calling the mainline and artist tiers.
If you don't want to spend in the range of $8-$10k, move down a tier! I don't understand this apparent insistence that the only clarinets that matter, and are worth playing, are the very top-of-the-line, most expensive models. Perhaps a renowned soloist, or the holder of a chair in a leading international orchestra, can or should take that view. But it's hardly a sound basis for a sweeping criticism of clarinet prices overall, as if no one were able to buy anything but the costliest instruments.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-02-27 22:13
Is the price also perhaps to do with how many of a given line are sold?
I always think that the price of a contrabasson (£35k I think) is hilarious, but I suppose that probably only quite a small number of those are sold, so maybe it costs more to keep the production line going.
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Author: senexclarinetta
Date: 2023-02-27 22:55
The Greenline has to be something of a Veblen good -- priced to seem luxurious, not like a budget offering. If it's expensive, it's not like other composites, right?
It strikes me that clarinets are priced rather like bicycles. There's the top tier, which only those with sponsorships have. The middle top tier, for hobbyists with lots of money. The lower top tier, which is will be fine for most serious hobbyists. Then lots of entry-level options, to which the tech has trickled down.
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Author: bradfordlloyd
Date: 2023-02-27 23:33
The major manufacturers charge whatever they can get away with. They are owned by private equity groups and conglomerates who don't care about the quality of thew product -- why would they? They continue to sell Buffets that don't even play without a full overhaul after you purchase. Would you buy a car that had to be reworked before you could drive it home??!! Buffet instruments remain popular, but I don't understand why
Buy vintage instruments. More care and workmanship was the rule in the past.
And, it's far more sustainable (yes, they are recycled clarinets). Assuming that vintage horns are being sold because they are somehow faulty is not necessarily true. But definitely try before you buy. Like used cars, you can find incredible quality instruments for less money -- not every used car is a lemon. Most aren't. Same with clarinets.
As soon as you drive a new car off of the lot, it loses value. The same is true with clarinets. So, find a good player who has nice instruments and just changing what they are focusing on (just as you might find someone who has taken good care of their car, but now has different needs).
Full disclosure: I'm a high functioning amateur....but those making their living playing clarinet should be even more cautious of the cost of instruments. Will the $8K you pay for a new instrument ever pay for itself? It never will for me.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-02-27 23:49
I feel compelled to address the idea of paying for added work on a new horn.
As a serious clarinet student in the 80's in Chicago, it was understood that you would have Bill Brannen replace the manufacturer's pads with something far superior BEFORE you played seriously with your new horn (all cork on top and custom made triple bladder pads on the bottom). It was NOT because the existing pads were inferior, they were just not "suped up." For me the real juice in the "Brannenization" was how he evened out the spring tensions and used heavy weight key oil to smooth out the action (particularly for the rings). That is something I do to every horn I use now (that process is easy enough to do). BUT if you want cork pads on the top joint, or Omni Pads or Quartz Resonance Pads over the whole horn, you'll have to pay for those separately and have a competent tech do this for you (unless you're REALLY good at doing this sort of work).
No, a new horn will NEVER come set-up exactly the way you want it...........sorry.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: rs cl
Date: 2023-02-28 00:09
This thread seems seriously overheated and a bit ridiculous.
A few things:
- Wages aren't pegged to inflation in most countries
- If you're rejecting 95% of the clarinets you play, and then say the E13 is the best clarinet- maybe your playing is the problem?
- If the owner of a Legend is playing 20 cents flat across the board, maybe he's the problem?
- I'm not a deadset capitalist but the companies making clarinets are private companies. They're allowed to charge whatever they want. It's not a charity organisation, as much as we all wish it could be. A private business is literally a "money making scheme"...
- I'm a professional clarinettist. I play Buffet Festival instruments. Why? Because they're the best in sound. If I can't make it play in tune other than the low E then that is my problem. I have no problem paying the price for a pair of instruments that will last me thousands upon thousands of hours. I'm not going to pay x thousands of dollars more for Toscas or Legend or Moba or whatever because I know it's just not worth it when I can get 95% or more of the same result from a less expensive instrument.
- Yes you can buy a vintage instrument, and that's fine, but seriously, it's not going to sound anywhere near as good when the bore is ovalised and blown out after 60 years. How many old friends have I had who have been stuck with some old sack of crap A clarinet that they bought or their parents bought them because it was "vintage". Too many.
- Regardless of all of this, if you're a good enough player, it doesn't matter what you play.
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2023-02-28 00:15
ChuChu:
There's a listing for a beautiful set of used clarinets right now on this site. Neither instrument is worn out with playability issues. Quite the opposite.
I was in the position to purchase a new set of Uebel Superiors and did so. I'm selling my old set because I want them to be loved and played, not sitting in my closet. To date, I've never had any other pro try these horns and state they weren't just beautiful playing.
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2023-02-28 00:35
A follow-on to the historical costs posted by Paulyb. I looked up an R13 Prestige in some old price lists I have, and converted to 2023 money:
1986: £1265 (£3453 today)
2002: £2150 (£3655 today)
So sounds like £3550 would be a fair price today. Howarths are currently charging £4235, which is 20% more. That in itself doesn't seem too far out: VAT is now 20%, as against 10% or less in the earlier times and the pound is definitely worth less in relative terms thanks to Brexit.
But the figures I quote (and those of Paulyb) were the official list price, and in those days Howarth were happy to boast that they sold at a 20% "professional" discount. Probably this was a scam and no-one ever paid full price, but anyway it means that a present-day equivalent for what one would actually have paid back in the day is £2840 - which does make £4235 seem high, despite VAT etc.
What's depressing is that these older machines would have had a lot more hand finishing: the impressive automation that we see in the Buffet YouTube videos ought to have made it possible to produce more cheaply today. And it certainly makes it hard to justify over £6000 for the Legende etc. - the price there undoubtedly reflects mainly novelty value.
But despite this, I find it hard to agree with the general air of outrage on this thread. Clarinets are still relatively cheap - try £9695 for Howarth's standard XL pro oboe, never mind what string players have to pay. And the value gets even better on the 2nd-hand market. For perhaps £3000 you can get a pair of Buffets from around 1980 (the pre-Prestige era). There you have a product that certainly received plenty of attention from skilled craftsmen, and the thought that one can buy such an exquisite construction for so little seems almost wrong. We should welcome our good fortune in this respect.
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2023-02-28 00:36
There’s a discussion to be had about the rising cost of clarinets, but it’s not being had here.
A Buffet R-13 is roughly $4-$4.5K. That’s a lot compared to what it used to be, but it’s not $8-10K. So let’s start there.
The OP doesn’t want to pay the price of the top-tier lines that Buffet produces. But they want a pro instrument. Are they a pro? Should we care if they find the most expensive clarinet a company makes “prohibitively expensive?”
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2023-02-28 00:39
Clarinet prices have always been about more than the wood and materials. Every product on the planet is subject to the overhead and cost structures associated with it. To get mad about Greenline instrument prices is asinine.
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2023-02-28 00:41
“This is definitely some sort of a rip-off money making scheme. Problem is these manufacturers like Buffet, Selmer, Yamaha, Backun don't understand economics. High prices when the demand is not very high. Something is not right here.”
This is one of the funniest things I’ve read in a while on this BBoard. It sure seems like this thread is evidence of demand. Thankfully, the people who set prices at these companies report to someone who’s not the OP.
Post Edited (2023-02-28 00:42)
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Author: ChuChu
Date: 2023-02-28 00:50
I'm most interested in the Selmer Signatures, but these cost around 8,000-10,000 and I would have to go to the factory in Elkhart, Indiana or there headquarters in Paris, France or a clarinet show. But I have not had good luck with these as they all crack and the Signature A clarinet that I have that has lasted about 15 years is playing less than optimal. It is time to get a new set, but at prices like this I complain about too much I'm not sure. It's going to cost about 15,000 US dollars and up to get a set of these.
.
Do anyone know where I can buy these clarinets at the lowest price? I appreciate who would sell these at the lowest prices.
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Author: LostConn
Date: 2023-02-28 01:07
"Do anyone know where I can buy these clarinets at the lowest price? I appreciate who would sell these at the lowest prices."
I will attempt to reply directly to this message, even though it seems to be de rigueur here for people just to talk past each other.
A buyer in the United States can purchase an instrument from a European seller without paying the high VAT tacked on by the E.U. or U.K. This can result in a remarkably low price. For example, Dawkes Music in England currently prices a Selmer Signature Bb clarinet at £4,695 domestically, but only £3,912.50 for export. At current exchange rates, that export price is $4,747.32. Shipping to the United States is cheap and fast. (I know this because I personally bought a Backun Protege from this dealer just a couple of months ago.)
I have no opinion on the complaints about cracking. That's not a problem that price information can solve.
Post Edited (2023-02-28 01:09)
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2023-02-28 01:13
The other reason European prices are lower is they don't have the Buffet US distributor markup added on.
Buffet France should just sell direct to stores in the US and Europe, why they need a middleman operation makes no sense to me in this age of internet and global shipping.
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Author: LostConn
Date: 2023-02-28 01:22
"The other reason European prices are lower is they don't have the Buffet US distributor markup added on."
Yes, the European retail prices, even with the VAT, are typically substantially lower than the U.S. retail prices. That's due to the middleman effect here. But when an American buys from a European dealer, they get the advantage of both the lower base price *and* the removal of the VAT. The combination creates a huge saving.
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Author: ChuChu
Date: 2023-02-28 02:04
J.J you are nearly a fool. Buffet is making a confusing array of model to fool the naive buyers that they are getting some magic clarinet and making them pay lots of money. Backun Musical started this stupid trend of overpricing their clarinets on their top models while they have relatively no experience in making clarinets. Backun is the real clown. They don't have the experience in clarinet making that Buffet, Selmer, Leblanc and many other companies have like Howarth. They just started to just overcharge to seem like they make the best clarinets LMAO. I reject all Backun clarinets. That is why companies like Buffet and Selmer and Yamaha have done this overpricing business with newer models. I have tried these newer models and most play like crap. They don't even deserve half the price in my opinion. The Selmer Signature is a great clarinet in my opinion.
Post Edited (2023-02-28 02:05)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-02-28 02:24
ok
So let's stick with the Selmer and European prices. It wasn't that long ago we discussed the lower European prices and it was pointed out that although somewhat unfair to those in the US, you can book a vacation (and I mean VACATION) to Paris, pick out a set of clarinets from a good number and come home with a great clarinets all for the price you'd pay for just the clarinets you would find here.........and no vacation in France.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: ChuChu
Date: 2023-02-28 03:04
Back in 2007 when I purchased my set of Selmer Signature Bb and A clarinets selected from about a total of 26 Bb and A clarinets at the Selmer headquarters in Elkhart, Indiana I paid around 5,700 US dollars for the set. I drove all the way from Fort Lee, New Jersey to there and took 2 days to drive and stayed there for 3 days to select them out. The variation in the clarinets was huge. People and workers there were friendly and I had a tour of the facitiy where they make the Selmer USA clarinets. These are beginner and intermediate models. They are the exclusive distributor of Selmer Paris products in the USA.
Now the price is like almost triple the amount. This is what does not make sense to me. Can anybody explain this to me logically? Inflation can't explain this price increase.
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Author: gwie
Date: 2023-02-28 06:46
I bought my current Bb/A set of Yamaha CSVR clarinets back in 2019, and selected them at the Los Angeles Atelier out of dozens and dozens of beautifully setup instruments. At the time, both of them together were a smidgen under $6000.
It's not dramatically more today, and while the advertised price of ~$3500 is what is out there online for the Bb clarinet, most folks will appreciate getting it for a bit less than that from their local authorized Yamaha dealer, especially if they have a relationship with the shop.
> They [Backun] don't have the experience in clarinet making that
> Buffet, Selmer, Leblanc and many other companies have like Howarth.
Buffet has *terrible* quality control, to the point that there is a massive cottage industry that convinces buyers of new Buffet clarinets that they need to have a complete "value added" overhaul to begin with.
I've not found a Selmer Paris model where I liked the ergonomics/key layout. Over several years at NAMM I got to play extensively the Recital and Signature models, but never really loved any of them, despite previously playing the Series 9 and 10 clarinets back in high school.
Leblanc Paris no longer exists, and the current Leblanc USA doesn't make professional model clarinets at all, at least not since their partnership with Backun ended. I loved the Opus model I tried years ago, but it was also priced out of affordability for me at the time, so I got a Buffet R13 instead.
Howarth no longer makes clarinets.
Last time I bought and played a Backun clarinet (the MoBa model) full-time in 2017, it got a complete setup from Miles DeCastro at North Country Winds, who handles all Backun warranty service here in the US. It played wonderfully, and I only changed instruments because the weight of the additional mechanism was too much for my wrist, due to an old injury. I've visited their workshop in Canada and have seen the care and detail in which they make their instruments.
Post Edited (2023-02-28 10:40)
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-02-28 11:52
rs cl wrote:
"This thread seems seriously overheated and a bit ridiculous.
... the companies making clarinets are private companies. They're allowed to charge whatever they want. It's not a charity organisation, as much as we all wish it could be. A private business is literally a "money making scheme"...
- I'm a professional clarinettist. I play Buffet Festival instruments... I'm not going to pay x thousands of dollars more for Toscas or Legend or Moba or whatever because I know it's just not worth it when I can get 95% or more of the same result from a less expensive instrument...
- Regardless of all of this, if you're a good enough player, it doesn't matter what you play."
I am surprised (to say the least) how many responses this thread got, being really about NOTHING!
The price is the price, take it or leave it. That's it. Finished and done. Buffet is not going to read this thread, or, if they do, their prices will not change.And
BTW, take a look at Backun prices..
I heard a pro who sounded wonderful paying Buffet Gala or similar level Uebel.
Much better than I sound playing Tosca or Divine.
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Author: rs cl
Date: 2023-02-28 13:51
ChuChu wrote:
> I'm most interested in the Selmer Signatures, but these cost
> around 8,000-10,000 and I would have to go to the factory in
> Elkhart, Indiana or there headquarters in Paris, France or a
> clarinet show. But I have not had good luck with these as they
> all crack and the Signature A clarinet that I have that has
> lasted about 15 years is playing less than optimal. It is time
> to get a new set, but at prices like this I complain about too
> much I'm not sure. It's going to cost about 15,000 US dollars
> and up to get a set of these.
> .
> Do anyone know where I can buy these clarinets at the lowest
> price? I appreciate who would sell these at the lowest prices.
First up, pretty rude calling someone a fool when you're just being beligerant, no? Especially when they seem to have a pretty logical viewpoint.
Anyway where are you getting these numbers? I spend 1 minute on google. Price of Bb Selmer Signature, some US site gives me $6800. You say you have to pay 8-10k?
You say you had to pay $5700 in 2007. A US inflation calcutor (google it) gives that in today's dollars as $8224.
I don't get what your point is? Why are you "rejecting" clarinets? Nobody asked you to go to the factory, so don't even try to martyr yourself over that point.
Do you really expect every single clarinet of the same model to play exactly the same? They are 1) a natural material, 2) built to tight tolerances that even a milimetre here or there changes a lot, 3) gets shipped before you play it, 4) is built by someone who probably doesn't play the clarinet.
Have you bought anything recently? Nothing is built perfectly. Don't expect a clarinet to be.
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2023-02-28 19:06
ChuChu just breached the 30 post milestone on this site. He’s enjoying his new platform. I doubt fact-checking him will slow down his attitude.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-02-28 21:01
Well there is some weird US distribution price oddity that occurred with Selmer somewhere between 2007 and 2011(ish). I recall trying a Selmer Privilege and thought it was one of the best clarinets I'd played. At that time (around 2011) you couldn't buy that single horn for under $6000. That price at the time was about twice what an R13 cost and I couldn't understand that. Someone on this Board did explain about the price differential with the European market and I considered the trip.......but didn't.
I don't recall what the root cause was (could it be that at least with Selmer their market is mostly Europe so they let US distributors sell at what the few and faithful are willing to pay?).
That is still an interesting discussion but not entirely clarinety
.....................Paul Aviles
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Author: kilo
Date: 2023-02-28 23:05
Quote:
To get mad about Greenline instrument prices is asinine.
Yeah, okay. But what about simple concern – if there's no difference between the cost of using Grenadilla and using composite, Royal Global is losing over $3,000 with every Max bass they sell. Something's off with that business model!
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Author: LostConn
Date: 2023-02-28 23:36
"But what about simple concern – if there's no difference between the cost of using Grenadilla and using composite, Royal Global is losing over $3,000 with every Max bass they sell. Something's off with that business model!"
Clarinet pricing is largely a function of profit objectives and market positioning, not raw materials cost recovery. (As I noted above, the costs that matter more anyway are R&D, labor, overhead, etc.) There's no way in Gehenna that the grenadilla necessary to manufacture a bass clarinet costs $3k more than the same amount of a composite grenadilla substitute. But that doesn't matter, because the real point of the prices is to enable the instruments to compete effectively in their designated markets, either "professional" or "semi-professional."
Similarly, pricing a Greenline R13 less -- or more -- than a wood R13 probably would cause confusion and/or consternation about whether one version of the instrument was "better" than the other. If the Greenline were priced lower simply because its grenadilla dust mixture costs Buffet a few Euros less than solid wood, buyers and posters here would be saying, "The Greenline version can't really be as good, because it costs less." That's not how Buffet wants to market these instruments, so voila -- equal pricing.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-02-28 23:50
not the point.......but
There are definitely Greenline advantages. The most important is that the tone holes and bore remain CONSTANT from assembly all the way to you at the point of purchase (that CANNOT be said of wood). Then those dimensions remain constant over time. In ten years your bore will be just as round (or not) as it was when you bought it. Finally, it is resistant to the vagaries of humidity, and cold, thus it WiLL NEVER CRACK.
Just some ways that material would make the instrument worth MORE.
but that's not the point
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: kilo
Date: 2023-03-01 00:50
Quote:
If the Greenline were priced lower simply because its grenadilla dust mixture costs Buffet a few Euros less than solid wood, buyers and posters here would be saying, "The Greenline version can't really be as good, because it costs less."
Someone pointed that out a while back:
Quote:
Offering a GreenLine for significantly less than the price of a wooden model might tend to make people think they were getting less – got to protect the brand!
Actually, thinking about the Royal Global Max and the $3,000 difference between it and the Polaris model on which it's based, there's one other factor we may be overlooking. The Polaris comes with a sitting peg and a standing peg!
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2023-03-01 04:34
There is no question in my mind that Royal Global has a significantly lower profit margin for the Max than the Polaris. It possible they’re making up some of that difference in the level of finishing or setup quality control. Hard to say from the outside. But the low price of the Max is all marketing and market positioning. And we should cheer on the low price, assuming that they’re of the same high quality.
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Author: ChuChu
Date: 2023-03-01 04:38
J.J what is your problem? I have right to discuss on this forum this uncontrolled rise in price and declining quality of clarinets. I have been playing clarinet for over 30 years. I am an excellent expert player but do not play professionally because the pay is too low. I do other things to make a living. What is your background? You are probably just some beginner or intermediate player.
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Author: rs cl
Date: 2023-03-01 13:47
ChuChu wrote:
> J.J what is your problem? I have right to discuss on this forum
> this uncontrolled rise in price and declining quality of
> clarinets. I have been playing clarinet for over 30 years. I am
> an excellent expert player but do not play professionally
> because the pay is too low. I do other things to make a living.
> What is your background? You are probably just some beginner or
> intermediate player.
lol
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2023-03-01 19:13
Okay, here's my theory. And no one mentioned this word in the thread so far:
1) Pensions.
Buffet-Crampon has the leading image and reputation for clarinets. (Whether it's actually a deserved reputation or not, you got to admit they are good at marketing that perception.) They are made in Paris, France.
France has a lot of government programs and employer requirements related to retirement benefits. Those benefits need to be funded from something... and it's the sale of their products.
Now, are pensions cheaper or more expensive these days than they were back 50 or so years ago?
More expensive.
Why? Longevity. Longer life spans. People are living longer.
And again, they have to be funded... from something. They get their revenues from selling their products.
2) Mark to Market pricing
Because Buffet-Crampon has the leading image and reputation, the ripple effect for an industry where the higher price means higher quality... is that other manufacturers who are NOT in France (Yamaha, Backun, etc.) is that they need to price their instruments accordingly to be thought of as similar in quality.
Using cars as an example: you wouldn't buy a Mercedes-Maybach car believing it was in the same league as Rolls-Royce and Bentley. (In fact, that was a problem for the Mayback in the mid-2000's because it didn't look different enough than the Mercedes Benz it was based on.)
3) Grenadilla wood availability, storage and seasoning of wood process
I didn't read the whole thread. I know that grenadilla wood is becoming more and more scarce. So economically, that drives up prices.
But let's look at the rest of the equation: How long are the wood billets seasoned and stored? How many months to years?
Doesn't that take storage space?
How expensive is the real estate to have a storage facility large enough to do that work?
Think about lease agreements. Don't they increase the cost of doing business every time lease agreements renew?
Even if they OWNED the land outright (perhaps not the smartest financial decision; they'll probably borrow against it paying variable interest rates on the debt), how about the property taxes to pay for having that land?
Lots of economic factors that have very little to do with the production of the clarinet itself.
Getting back into playing after 20 years.
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Vandoren M15 Profile 88 (non-13) mouthpiece
Vandoren Optimum Silver ligature (plate 1)
Vandoren blue-box #3.5 reeds
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Author: ChuChu
Date: 2023-03-03 05:18
To rs cl:
Your rude attitude is very evident in your posts. I see you have 5 posts. I see you have no email address. You are entitled to your opinion but don't disrespect mine. The Buffet Festival is a relatively old model that has been surpassed by other models. That model was introduced in 1987. We are living in 2023. You are not correct in saying a pro will sound the same on any clarinet. Many pro clarinet players will not agree with that and is not the case as it does not make logical sense. You are playing on a clarinet. You don't sound the same on a clarinet that is poor in quality. Why are you playing on a Festival? Why don't you play on a Buffet E11 then or some other model? Many players pick and choose the clarinet that they like and feel a significant improvement in playing when they find a model that they like. Your thinking is flawed. I don't get where you think the Buffet Festival is the best clarinet. Buffet does not even consider this even near the top in their range.
Clarinet players have a right to demand that the makers charge their products at fair prices so they don't feel that they are being ripped off. Why do they exist? Just to take as much money from you any time you buy anything from them? The rise in prices of the Selmer Paris clarinets are quite huge in a relatively short time. This is a troubling trend. These are what I prefer, but I like Buffets as well. I don't like intermediate models as I feel they are inferior in quality.
Post Edited (2023-03-03 05:27)
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Author: rs cl
Date: 2023-03-03 22:58
I don't have my email public so that whackos like yourself don't write to me. You asking about it confirms I made the right decision. I have 5 posts because I can't remember the login to my old account.
To address your salient points:
- Clarinets aren't like iphones. They don't come out with a new model each year, nor does clarinet playing change in such a short time. That the Festival was developed in that year is neither here nor there.
- I didn't write any of what you think I wrote:
"- Regardless of all of this, if you're a good enough player, it doesn't matter what you play."
It's a generalisation about people having 'their' own sound; a higher level concept.
- I think I outlined why I play on a Festival quite clearly.
- I didn't know that you knew the intricate details of what Buffet considered as top of range instruments. But anyway, to quote you on pricing pro level instruments:
"
Every major clarinet manufacturer it seems wants 8,000-10,000 dollars for their Bb and A clarinets. ... I don't want to bankrupt myself trying to buy a good pro clarinet.
"
- Can you please elaborate on the price increases in detail (with real numbers) regarding Selmer clarinets so we can actually write about what this thread is about?
- Didn't you write you reject all clarinets but think that the E13 is a good instrument? Is that not an intermediate model? Or is that pro? Or beginner?
Either way, if you're getting paid more than a musician, even though you could be one because you're definitely good enough, should it really matter? I'm not going to bankrupt myself on my low pay buying a pair of "pro" clarinets.
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Author: jim sclater
Date: 2023-03-04 03:31
Mr. David Kinder makes some excellent points in his recent post. In another post someone said "Clarinet players have a right to demand that the makers charge their products at fair prices so they don't feel that they are being ripped off." I disagree.
Clarinet manufacturers have a right to charge a price that enables them to deal with the factors Mr. Kinder cites in his post. The bottom line for me is this: Live within your means. Find the best clarinet you can afford, practice it, enjoy it, make music with it. Don't worry about the myriad of options out there.
jsclater@comcast.net
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Author: Clarineat
Date: 2023-03-14 02:00
The truth is that clarinet players actually pay the least of almost any instrument for professional horns. I know a guy who paid something like $65,000 for a contrabassoon. Flutes are easily over $20,000.
A more meaningful metric than the highest priced instrument available, or even the "average" price paid, would be what is the "modal" average. Meaning, what is the amount that most people in a given data set spend on a new clarinet.
For professional instruments, I believe we will find this number to fall somewhere in the range of $4-5000 USD based on current entry level professional instruments on the market.
The fact that outliers are paying more for high end instruments is no surprise, has always occurred, and should be expected if we want innovation to continue. In fact, I would estimate that the price of a "typical" professional clarinet is probably the same as it was 22 years ago when I last bought a set of instruments before my current set.
Let me do some simple math to find out.
When I was in high school in 2001 I bought a Festival clarinet for $3750 CAD. This was considered a more premium model than the entry level nickel R13, which could have been had for I believe about $3250 CAD.
Today, a basic R13 can be purchased for $5575 CAD brand new, and using a reverse inflation calculator that equals $3,300 CAD in 2001 dollars.
Interestingly I sold my 2001 Festival for $3750 in 2021, so the clarinet was actually a pretty good investment and all the instrument "cost" me was inflation, and maintenance. However, it also gave me 20 years of music making and countless work opportunities in music so the true ROI of this is difficult to calculate.
Not a bad perspective to take instead.
Sean Perrin
Host of the Clarineat Podcast
Listen FREE at www.clarineat.com
hello@clarineat.com
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