 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: kdk
Date: 2023-02-21 01:33
Out of curiosity I followed the URL in SunnyDaze's reply to the question about "the small, white plastic plug..." The website gives the price per piece in Euros (£0.91). I Googled the equivalent price in US dollars and got $1,07. I'm used to seeing Vandoren tip openings expressed in one-hundredths of a millimeter as 119,5 (B40) or 100,5 (M13). And I guess I've seen the comma notation in prices expressed in Euros on European websites.
Why is a comma used instead of a decimal point? Is it a typographical issue (the comma is clearer than a dot)? Just a tradition (and where does it come from)? Or is there a difference between 115,5 and 115.5 millimeters as a tip measurement?
Karl
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2023-02-21 02:47
I don't know Karl**, but when I was in the UK last summer I learned that it was Napolean's left handedness that made his mid road attacks while traveling on the left (i.e. US) side more effective, and that he forced the countries he conquered to adopt such travel protocols. 
Here's one for you Karl. The Chunnel, the tunnel in the English Channel that connects the UK and France (where they drive on the same side of the road as in the States) accepts no motor vehicles that are driven in the Chunnel by their operators. In other words car carrying train cars are possible.
But if it did, at some point under the English Channel, perhaps half way between the countries, would motorists have to switch to the other side of the road?!!!
** I've heard use of the comma as a thousand's place identifier causes it to not be confused with the slightly "higher in elevation" dot used to denote multiplication.
Post Edited (2023-02-21 02:49)
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Author: Chris_C ★2017
Date: 2023-02-21 03:03
The comma is used as a decimal point in most of Europe. UK (and US, I think?) tends to use the comma as a thousands (and millions and billions) separator, but most countries (and I think the SI standard?) uses a space.
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Author: prigault
Date: 2023-02-21 04:17
It is funny you should cite Vandoren for numbers notations, as even within Europe they are not content of using a single notation for their reed strengths:
For example, between strengths 2 to 3, they have two denominations:
- Traditional and V12 : 2 1/2
- V21 and 56 Rue Lepic : 2,5
Same thing between 4 and 5.
However, between 3 and 4 they have more values, or not, depending on the type:
- Traditional : 3 1/2
- V12 : 3 1/2 and 3 1/2+
- V21 and 56 Rue Lepic: 3,5 and 3,5+
God knows where 3,5+ and 3 1/2+ are with regard respectively to 3,75 and 3 3/4.
Please don't let them know of the US/UK notation on top of that ;-)
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Author: Luuk ★2017
Date: 2023-02-21 13:25
The use of , or . is just traditional.
There is no real difference between 10/4 = 2,5 and 10/4 = 2.5 other than that the first one is wrong in the US and the second one is wrong in the EU.
According to this comprehensive article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_separator#History, 80 countries use the comma as decimal seperator, and 60 use the dot. Engineers and finance guys just read over it.
Regards,
Luuk
Philips Symphonic Band
The Netherlands
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2023-02-21 14:35
>> the price per piece in Euros (£0.91) <<
That's a GBP symbol, not Euro (that website is in the UK).
As others said, it's just the way it is in certain countries. Maybe someone else knows why.
It's not just what separates the cents (or any local equivalent) or prices, but any number. For example:
1,900.50
1.900,50
Some websites adjust this when you change the currency.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2023-02-21 18:18
clarnibass wrote:
> That's a GBP symbol, not Euro (that website is in the UK).
>
Oops! I should have realized that. When I plugged it into the converter I cut and pasted the price (including the £ sign), so it made the conversion without a complaint.
> It's not just what separates the cents (or any local
> equivalent) or prices, but any number. For example:
> 1,900.50
> 1.900,50
>
Yes - like the VD mouthpiece facings I cited (M13 tip=100,5 mm).
It's one of those picky details you see but don't necessarily pay attention to, until you suddenly see an example that piques your interest.
Thanks, everyone.
Karl
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2023-02-21 21:40
Watch out, the those tip openings are read as hundredths of mm, not simply mm. i.e. a reported value of 100.5 is actually 1.005 mm
Barrels have a similar, but different convention to be marked in tenths of mm. A marked 660 barrel measures 66.0mm length. Why can't they just stick to the standards of the metric system?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-02-21 22:45
In the UK, the comma is used for large numbers, usually from 1,000 upwards (although 1000 is also commonly used without the comma) - 10,000 - 100,000 - 1,000,000 - 10,000,000 etc.
The decimal point is used for fractions 1.6mm - 14.65mm - 2.2l - 3.5m etc.
And in currency (pounds and pence) £0.99 (or 99p) - £1.99 - £19.99 - £1,999.99 (or £1999.99) - £38,500.00 - £1.2m - £37bn etc.
Although imperial measurements aren't used much for very small measurements where millimetres and fractions of a millimetre are used, steel guitar and bass strings are still sold in thou(sandths) of an inch eg. a set of 9 - 42 strings being .009" - .042"
Likewise with some sax mouthpiece tip openings - Lawton soprano sax mouthpiece numbers are directly related to the tip opening in thousandths of an inch, so a Lawton 6 soprano has a tip opening of .060", a 6* is .065", etc.
Some mouthpieces have the measurements with the decimal point shifted, so a Vandoren 11.6 is in fact a 1.16mm tip opening.
While single reed strengths (and that's strength and not size) are generally measured in half or quarter strengths, they're usually expressed as decimal fractions (2.5, 3.25, etc) as that's easier to type or has become the norm in decimal countries, but you'd often still ask for a two and a half, or a three and a quarter strength (not size) reed. Although you can always ask for a two point five, or a three point two five strength (not size) reed if that's your thing.
Just to reiterate, reeds are measured in strength and not size, just as a melody/tune/theme (without singing nor lyrics) shouldn't be confused with a song (which has singing/lyrics), even though that seems to be the trend nowadays.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2023-02-22 22:34)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2023-02-21 23:09
Hunter_100 wrote:
> Watch out, the those tip openings are read as hundredths of mm,
> not simply mm. i.e. a reported value of 100.5 is actually
> 1.005 mm
Yes, I know. Too hurried in typing. A lot of the mouthpiece ads I've seen from American makers do use a decimal - 1.025 mm would be the same as Vandoren's 102,5, although I rarely if ever have seen an American ad specify a tip opening to 3 decimal places (thousandths) - only hundredths, e.g. 1.02. That's probably a topic for another thread - where do all those ,5 or .5 measurements (102,5) come from?
>
> Barrels have a similar, but different convention to be marked
> in tenths of mm. A marked 660 barrel measures 66.0mm length.
> Why can't they just stick to the standards of the metric
> system?
It seems to me I hadn't seen this until I started trying Buffet Moennig and Chadash barrels. All the other barrels in my drawer are marked in 2-digit mm sizes (if they're marked at all - older ones need you to have a Vernier caliper handy).
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-02-21 23:19
Just like Vandoren 11.1 or 11.6 mouthpieces (1.11mm and 1.16mm tip openings), some barrels (eg Selmer and others) usually have things like 665 or 645 stamped on the back which denote 66.5mm or 64.5mm, so any divisions under a tenth of a millimetre aren't separated by a decimal point, although smaller divisions of a hundredth are separated with a decimal point. I'm not a mathematician by any means, so I don't know what they'd call this type of metric unit.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2023-02-22 22:25)
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2023-02-22 21:22
clarnibass wrote:
> >> the price per piece in Euros (£0.91) <<
>
> That's a GBP symbol, not Euro (that website is in the UK).
>
Seeing a GBP symbol here saddens me. It reminds me of GBK, Glenn Kantor, a moderator here of blessed memory......
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2023-02-22 23:34
kdk wrote:
>
> It seems to me I hadn't seen this until I started trying Buffet
> Moennig and Chadash barrels. All the other barrels in my drawer
> are marked in 2-digit mm sizes (if they're marked at all -
> older ones need you to have a Vernier caliper handy).
>
I'm pretty sure no one in my lab (but me) knows how to read a Vernier scale. You can buy full digital calipers for $10 from Asia, it will eventually be a lost skill I think.
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