 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2023-01-19 04:52
I better define that product first.
It's not an electronic clarinet, but my name for a soundproof enclosure for the clarinet that's a variation of Best Brass' actual e-Sax product....which some of you are familiar with. It ties into my recent attempts to DIY a clarinet mute: none of which yet are much "to write home about."
http://www.bestbrass.com/stf/e-sax.html
I was wondering about both the logistics and business case for designing such an item. It makes me wonder what might be different about muting a clarinet with a similar sound absorbing case approach and whether best brass feels the saxophone is more in need of muting (I know some clarinet players who can really play loud,) or more consumers play the saxophone than the clarinet.
Maybe it's just as simple as its inventor was a sax player.
What obstacles do you think such a product might uniquely run into that a saxophone muting case wouldn't. I'm not coming up with any at the moment except maybe that the (Soprano) clarinet has the ability to player higher pitched notes..........
Post Edited (2023-01-19 19:25)
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2023-01-19 08:07
Should be fairly easy to build a prototype with some large diameter PVC pipe, some tee fittings, some egg crate foam and a few other bits and pieces. Would I buy one? Probably not, but I'm sure others would.
-JDbassplayer
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2023-01-19 08:39
JD:
I've got another thread floating around here where you and I had the same idea.
It started out with an architectural drawing tube of 4" in diameter.
It was not big enough to get a normal person's hands into the tube wrist deep and still have the room the play inside. Getting hands in wrist deep means smaller openings in the vessel, as I'm sure you appreciate, from which sound can escape.
So off to the big box store I went, seeking the very large diameter PVC pipe you suggest.
Now clearly, a plumbing supply house is bound to have it, but 8" in diameter, and trust me, that's the minimum interior size, that's just not a stock PVC or pipe item in a big box store. It's probably pricey too.
I know this magic number because I did start attempt # two with one of those cardboard tubes in the building section of a big box store that you stick in a hole in the ground and pour concrete into to lay a pillar for a building's foundation. I put 2" (albeit non-acoustic) foam on the outside, and 4" foam on the ends, cutting two "T" shapes in the foam to stick each hand into. It barely limited the sound.
The cardboard forms come in 12" and 16" diameters as well, all 4 feet in length. I suspect that they're both cheaper in price and ability to dampen sound than their PVC counterparts. I think my next stop might be the 16" diameter one, with acoustical (egg crate) foam inside and out. Such a large tube I'll have leaning against the floor. The prior narrower one I cut to length.
I'm new to this stuff and it seems that both materials and mass make the difference; my initial attempts lack much of both.
I'm just surprised that Best Brass or others haven't put anything out into the market. Maybe they tried and felt the best soundproofing for a clarinet player comes in the form of a room that also encapsulates its player.
I just don't know. I hope that's wrong.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-01-19 14:09
One of these would be good if it was also adaptable for oboe and soprano sax. I've mentioned it elsewhere in the past, but can't remember where.
I have both alto and tenor sax ones and they're excellent in allowing to play at full volume and not disturbing the neighbours, but a clarinet/oboe one would be very welcome.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Djudy
Date: 2023-01-19 14:36
If you are looking for tubing, amateur astronomers looking to build home-made Dobson telescopes use cardboard sono tubes employed in concret construction. I got mine by going to the firm which supplied the local road works department. It was very cheap.
PS one of the reasons I love playing alto clarinet is that it is a very zen instrument and can be played with great satisfaction at low sound levels such that daytime practice at least is not a problem in our appartement building. Yeah for the alto !
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2023-01-19 19:39
Chris: despite several Youtube videos on soundproofing that draw the same conclusion: that there is just no getting around the idea that mass...weight....in addition to sound dampening materials, is best at deadening sound, one of the reasons I tried to pursue a lighter weight device was no less videos of the effectiveness of the e-sax case, which you concur with, despite its relatively light weight.
I completely agree that any case designed within reason to handle the maximum number of instruments makes good business sense.
Djudy: it sounds like the cardboard tubes you describe are similar if not identical to the ones I used.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-01-20 17:16
The internal volume of the case will have to be fairly large, probably around the size of an alto sax case to allow for ease of playing and to keep the breath resistance normal.
In order to make it adaptable for clarinet, oboe and soprano sax, it will need foam collets to close around the top end of the clarinet barrel, the mouthpiece shank on soprano saxes and the crown on oboe top joints, then some adjustable supports or velcro straps on the inside to secure the bells of each instrument against a shaped block with different adapters to suit the different diameters, or a V block which can be moved up and down the inside of the mute to suit each instrument. I can't honestly see why it's not doable and as of yet, hasn't been done when there are two sax mutes on the market with the same basic concept of the instrument being housed within a plastic shell lined with sound deadening material and neoprene seals for the hand holes.
Just as a side note, when I first read the title I automatically assumed an e-Clarinet was a wind synth with clarinet specific fingering like a clarinet version of the Roland AE-10 and Yamaha YDS-150. The problem I have with wind synths when playing clarinet music is I instinctively want to use clarinet fingerings with the 8ve key acting like a clarinet speaker key to give a 12th instead of an 8ve. I suppose it's fine for anyone who doesn't play clarinet to make a clarinet-like sound with the familiarity of sax fingerings, but for a clarinettist wanting them to behave like a clarinet just for the sake of silent practice, it just doesn't work like that. Maybe some wind synths have adaptable and pre-programmed fingerings so they could be put into clarinet mode, but I'm not all that tech savvy and if anything, I prefer to keep out of the whole synth thing, even though I have both Roland AE-10 and Yamaha YDS-150.
Back on topic - has anyone approached Best Brass about developing a multi/adaptable soprano woodwind whisper mute?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: smokindok
Date: 2023-01-20 19:36
Chris P. wrote:
"Just as a side note, when I first read the title I automatically assumed an e-Clarinet was a wind synth with clarinet specific fingering like a clarinet version of the Roland AE-10 and Yamaha YDS-150. The problem I have with wind synths when playing clarinet music is I instinctively want to use clarinet fingerings with the 8ve key acting like a clarinet speaker key to give a 12th instead of an 8ve."
This is the thing that is revolutionary about the ClariMate. It is a wind synth using clarinet fingerings, not to mention a real clarinet for the instrument body and keys.
John
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2023-01-20 20:36
Chris P wrote:
> The internal volume of the case will have to be fairly large,
> probably around the size of an alto sax case to allow for ease
> of playing and to keep the breath resistance normal.
Agreed. It's one of the two reasons: that and hand maneuverability that has me conclude that an 8"/20cm internal diameter is probably the minimum.
FWIW Chris I also distanced the bell from the bottom of the tube: which had 4"/10cm thick foam so full fingered notes whose sound and wind emerge from the bell would not face user perceivable back pressure, hitting right up against that 4"/10cm foam.
> In order to make it adaptable for clarinet, oboe and soprano
> sax, it will need foam collets to close around the top end of
> the clarinet barrel, the mouthpiece shank on soprano saxes and
> the crown on oboe top joints, then some adjustable supports or
> velcro straps on the inside to secure the bells of each
> instrument against a shaped block with different adapters to
> suit the different diameters, or a V block which can be moved
> up and down the inside of the mute to suit each instrument. I
> can't honestly see why it's not doable and as of yet, hasn't
> been done when there are two sax mutes on the market with the
> same basic concept of the instrument being housed within a
> plastic shell lined with sound deadening material and neoprene
> seals for the hand holes.
Completely agree.
> Just as a side note, when I first read the title I
> automatically assumed an e-Clarinet was a wind synth with
> clarinet specific fingering like a clarinet version of the
> Roland AE-10 and Yamaha YDS-150.
I feared just such a reasonable read--which is why my opening thoughts were to define what I meant by e-clarinet.
> The problem I have with wind
> synths when playing clarinet music is I instinctively want to
> use clarinet fingerings with the 8ve key acting like a clarinet
> speaker key to give a 12th instead of an 8ve. I suppose it's
> fine for anyone who doesn't play clarinet to make a
> clarinet-like sound with the familiarity of sax fingerings, but
> for a clarinettist wanting them to behave like a clarinet just
> for the sake of silent practice, it just doesn't work like
> that. Maybe some wind synths have adaptable and pre-programmed
> fingerings so they could be put into clarinet mode, but I'm not
> all that tech savvy and if anything, I prefer to keep out of
> the whole synth thing, even though I have both Roland AE-10 and
> Yamaha YDS-150.
>
> Back on topic - has anyone approached Best Brass about
> developing a multi/adaptable soprano woodwind whisper mute?
>
I've approached Best Brass in an email a few days ago. I've yet to hear from them.
smokindok wrote:
>
>
> This is the thing that is revolutionary about the ClariMate. It
> is a wind synth using clarinet fingerings, not to mention a
> real clarinet for the instrument body and keys.
>
> John
The ClariMate is not only innovative but has its place, particularly with traveling musicians I think who couldn't lug any DIY device (at least one I'd make that works).
I also feel though that the ClariMate, while so much better than nothing at all, leaves much to be desired as an alternate to conventional practice---not that I think anyone disagrees.
The nuances of clarinet play can only be approximated by an electronic device. And while I suspect that the technology will improve, it may only approach true wind instrument play, not replace it.
....wouldn't be the first time that I'd be wrong.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-01-20 21:56
The problem I find with the sax mutes are the lowest notes are near impossible to play, even though there's some space between the bell flare and the inside of the case. Maybe it's the increased air pressure within the mute that causes that problem. Also I find I have to use a harder reed with the mutes than I'd normally use - I don't know if anyone else with the sax mutes has experienced this.
A very noticeable thing is the sax ones do get rather hot and sticky inside whilst playing which may not be ideal for wooden clarinets (or oboes) for long periods of playing time. On saxes it causes the pads to become sticky and it's only in everyone's best interests to not leave the instrument in them with the lid closed when not playing. For that purpose, it's best to use a plastic instrument with stainless steel springs and screws just to be on the safe side instead of using your best wooden instrument.
And in the general design, it should be made long enough to accommodate an A clarinet (or full Boehm Bb clarinet). I'm picturing it like the sax ones but with the opening at the very top.
http://www.bestbrass.com/stf/e-sax.html
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2023-01-21 06:58
Chris P wrote:
> The problem I find with the sax mutes are the lowest notes are
> near impossible to play, even though there's some space between
> the bell flare and the inside of the case.
I've heard that from others.
Maybe it's the
> increased air pressure within the mute that causes that
> problem. Also I find I have to use a harder reed with the mutes
> than I'd normally use - I don't know if anyone else with the
> sax mutes has experienced this.
Perhaps notes which vent from higher tone holes also vent in small parts from the open tone holes below them, of which there are less of just such open tone holes after the first open one when playing low notes. (??)
>
> A very noticeable thing is the sax ones do get rather hot and
> sticky inside whilst playing which may not be ideal for wooden
> clarinets (or oboes) for long periods of playing time.
The mute I would envision making would not seek to make compact size its first priority. For all I care the devise could sit on the floor, not intended, like the Clarimate, to be taken, say, to hotels, but to dampen sound in one location, like an apartment.
With such large size I'd hope there more space to slow the humidification process for play. Perhaps this is one of several issues encountered when people like Best Brass sought to copy their design for a clarinet, if they or others even attempt it all.
On saxes
> it causes the pads to become sticky and it's only in everyone's
> best interests to not leave the instrument in them with the lid
> closed when not playing. For that purpose, it's best to use a
> plastic instrument with stainless steel springs and screws just
> to be on the safe side instead of using your best wooden
> instrument.
>
> And in the general design, it should be made long enough to
> accommodate an A clarinet (or full Boehm Bb clarinet). I'm
> picturing it like the sax ones but with the opening at the very
> top.
>
Me too
> http://www.bestbrass.com/stf/e-sax.html
>
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