 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-01-15 03:19
Just as the thread title says: why R13/R13 Prestige (R13P) seem to be the preference of the players in the US, while in Europe RC/RC Prestige (RC P) is more popular than R13 / R13 P?
Dawkes music writes the following: "...players suggest they feel the R13 is a little brighter and more ‘punchy’ whereas the RC is a little rounder, and sweeter..."
In 2005, Auddie Nick wrote on this board, "I like RC's because I am able to produce a less bright and less piercing sound on them as opposed to R13's. I find the sound to be warmer and richer and definitely prefer the intonation tendencies on RC's."
In the same thread, BelgianClarinet wrote, "Almost all Buffet players (= almost all clarinet players) here play (if they have a professional grade instrument) on RC or RC-based clarinets....We don't have R13 here".
Yet, it seems like the majority of the US players use R13 or R13P.
My own experience with the R13P vs RC P clarinet was that on RC my tone seemed a little more mellow and richer, while not having the piercing (or some will call it ringing) quality of the R13.
Is the R13 so popular in the US because the concert halls here are large, often not build for live music playing, and thus require bigger, piercing/penetrating sound?
Or is it the custom/habit/call-it-whatever to play on R13 in the US?
I'd like to hear your thoughts.
Thank you
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-01-15 03:31
I was fortunate to have a good selection of clarinets to try out under performance conditions. I just found the RC to have a smaller sound that did not match well with my peers. That’s it, just need to keep up with everyone. Period.
…………Paul AVILES
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-01-15 05:01
Paul Aviles wrote:
" ... I just found the RC to have a smaller sound that did not match well with my peers. That’s it, just need to keep up with everyone..."
Hi Paul,
if you do not mind me asking, what setting were you playing in at the time? Symphony orchestra, band, chamber ensemble?
Also, when you say "a smaller sound", do you mean "less spread-out" or "quieter" compared to the sound from R13?
Can the difference be attributed to the individual instruments you've tried?
Thanks
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-01-15 07:44
My setting was both military bands (and associated smaller ensembles) as well as local community concert bands.
We've discussed the idea of loudness and projection in other threads and it is a little hard to parse out what that means......BUT what I refer to is blending timbre and dynamics with those immediately around you. It would not be much different than the dynamic in a symphony orchestra. You want all the legs of the table to be the same strength and, of course the same height. It might be hard to describe to anyone not familiar but you know when you are at the same level of sound (and projection) as those around you. The options to that are to be too loud for the group or to be too soft (not holding up your end of the bargain).
I also wanted to add that there was more to the story than just the one horn (which would not be the most fair evaluation since that particular horn could have had some "issues"). In my final years in the Army Band system I was part of the decision making process that brought in newer horns to replace some of our older horns. I helped get our band one of Buffet's Divine clarinets. It is billed as horn based on the RC design. I heard good things about it and wanted that option for the group. Upon testing it I found it remarkably similar to the experience I had with the RC some ten years prior. The horn featured synthetic corks at the tenons so I felt that may have contributed to the "stifled" sound. I had that immediately replaced with cork but the sonic results were still the same. I think in the States we prefer instruments that project within the group. What happens in any given hall is only a result of the blend of the entire group (and the direction of sensitive conductors).
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-01-15 21:00
Paul,
Thanks for your detailed reply.
I also played in a military band (although it was long time ago), and I play in a small band right now.
I can see that in a band, esp. where there are 10-15 clarinet players, one needs "to be heard", dynamics-wise.
However, since it is almost impossible to hear an individual player, the tone/timbre quality can become secondary to dynamics.
Currently, I am using a late pre-R13 Buffet when I play with the band. I find it feels more open and its "straight forward" sound blends well with trumpets and saxes.
However, I find that the RC prestige just blends so much better with strings.
I had an R13 Prestige (a good one), and it had nice warm and somewhat too bright sound that was "above" the strings, for the lack of a better description.
After I bought a RC Prestige (in Europe) and asked two very good clarinetists to compare the RC Prestige to the R13 Prestige, both musicians told me they were "very nice instruments" and it would be up to me to choose (one of them is a renowned clarinetist).
My feeling was and still is that the RC Prestige blends better with the strings compared to the R13P, with somewhat more stable tuning.
As one of my friends said, the RC Prestige had "more mature sound, you can do more with it".
That was and still is my feeling, I just was wondering why there is such discrepancy in preference between European and NA players.
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Author: kilo
Date: 2023-01-15 22:20
Quote:
The horn featured synthetic corks at the tenons so I felt that may have contributed to the "stifled" sound. I had that immediately replaced with cork but the sonic results were still the same.
That's not surprising.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2023-01-15 23:44
I think the R13 is easier to keep at A-440. The pitch in most European countries is considerably higher.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: prigault
Date: 2023-01-16 00:10
I would suggest that it has a lot to do with availability differences, perhaps more than with the instruments per se.
Finding an RC (Prestige or not) for purchase in a north american shop has always been just as rare as finding an R13 in a european shop (the same thing happens for their respective Eb models, by the way). Add that to the marketed difference about tuning one at 440 and the other at 442 (which is not an issue really, given barrels and mouthpieces), the tendency to go with the pack, and the recommendations by former generations of clarinetists (teachers in Europe have RCs, and in America have R13s) and I think you have most of the explaination.
Just consider the Festival or the Tosca for example (both in the R13 bore family). They have been available everywhere since the start and are not marketed specifically for 440 or 442 (and come with two barrels). These clarinets sell equally (very) well on both sides of the Atlantic.
Now, there remains some real differences between these instruments, but here I would suggest that as players, we tend to feel many more differences than those which exist in the sound and that the audience perceives. This is because we have to pay a lot of attention to the minute playing differences (resistance, intonation, keys position and feel) that happen everywhere, in order to compensate for them and get the sound that we conceive (that sound concept being largely independent of the instrument).
If one model truly "blended better with strings" (would this apply equally to Mozart and Shostakovich ?), then does someone really believe that we would get such a clear geographical partioning of clarinetists ?
Post Edited (2023-01-16 00:15)
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-01-16 22:55
prigault wrote:
> I would suggest that it has a lot to do with availability
> differences, perhaps more than with the instruments per se.
>
> Finding an RC (Prestige or not) for purchase in a north
> american shop has always been just as rare as finding an R13 in
> a european shop (the same thing happens for their respective Eb
> models, by the way). Add that to the marketed difference about
> tuning one at 440 and the other at 442 (which is not an issue
> really, given barrels and mouthpieces), the tendency to go with
> the pack, and the recommendations by former generations of
> clarinetists (teachers in Europe have RCs, and in America have
> R13s) and I think you have most of the explaination.
>
> Just consider the Festival or the Tosca for example (both in
> the R13 bore family). They have been available everywhere since
> the start and are not marketed specifically for 440 or 442 (and
> come with two barrels). These clarinets sell equally (very)
> well on both sides of the Atlantic.
>
> Now, there remains some real differences between these
> instruments, but here I would suggest that as players, we tend
> to feel many more differences than those which exist in the
> sound and that the audience perceives. This is because we have
> to pay a lot of attention to the minute playing differences
> (resistance, intonation, keys position and feel) that happen
> everywhere, in order to compensate for them and get the sound
> that we conceive (that sound concept being largely independent
> of the instrument).
>
> If one model truly "blended better with strings" (would this
> apply equally to Mozart and Shostakovich ?), then does someone
> really believe that we would get such a clear geographical
> partioning of clarinetists ?
Hi prigault,
Thank you for replying to my post.
I think availability of models in certain markets explains, at least partially, players' preferences. However, was there a need in the US for a different model than R13, Buffet probably would be happy to supply it?
I am also considering how clarinets have been used in the US vs. Europe:
Prevalence of bid big band vs. classical/symphony.
Another consideration is that in the US many concert venues were built for amplified music and in Europe many old theaters, churches are concert venues.
Just thinking of the Lincoln Center complex in NYC: Met opera's interior was rebuilt, I think, three times before it became acoustically "acceptable".
Just recently, David Geffen (previously Avery Fischer) hall was completely rebuilt for the same reason: it did not have good acoustics.
I can see how in a dull, not responsive hall a player may need to "push/project" the sound forward in order to be heard, possibly sacrificing tone quality to projection to some degree.
Regardless tuning of the modern Buffets: I recently read "somewhere" (cannot recall exactly where) that modern Buffets are tuned to 441Hz, and tuning to 440Hz and 442Hz is achieved using different barrels.
However, I would be very happy if I could have all of the notes I play to be within 2Hz from perfect tuning.
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Author: HANGARDUDE
Date: 2023-01-19 15:05
I think it largely comes down to 2 factors why the RC bore family(including the Divine) isn't as popular as the R13 bore family(including Festival, Vintage & Tosca) in the US:
1. Some tonal differences between the R13 and RC bore families that prompt American players to prefer the former. Could also be the differences in terms of feel as well- I've found that on an RC (Standard/Prestige) my voicing tends to be lower than on an R13 (Standard/Prestige).
2. Tradition and conservatism- The R13 bore family has long been the staple of the American school of clarinet due to the preferences above, so many players would simply tell you:"Since my teachers play on and recommend R13s and so does most other colleagues, so I chose them too!"
That said, there are exceptions to this- Eric Mandat, who is one of the greatest contemporary clarinet performer-composers alive(and my former mentor) and teaches at South Illinois Univesity, plays on RC Prestiges and prefers them over R13 Prestiges in terms of sound & feel. I also have the same preference for similar reasons, though I'm currently based in the UK(and previously Hong Kong and Australia) where both bore families are prevalent.
Josh
Post Edited (2023-01-23 11:10)
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2023-01-20 03:07
m1964 wrote: "However, I would be very happy if I could have all of the notes I play to be within 2Hz from perfect tuning."
What do you consider to be perfect tuning? Equal temperament??
Post Edited (2023-01-20 03:07)
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Author: donald
Date: 2023-01-20 05:31
I like, and play, R13 bore clarinets (my 1963 R13 Bb has what I'd call my "ideal tone") however the best Buffet A clarinet I've played in a LONG LONG TIME was a 2nd hand RC Prestige A clarinet. There's a story about this instrument, it was stolen and I worked this out through some detective work after trying it out. I had to decide, BUY IT MYSELF (knowing that it had been stolen) or to contact the original owner (who was relatively ungrateful and a bit annoying). The instrument had been bought new in Korea 10 years previously and the owner had been unable to claim insurance when it was stolen, so I couldn't just buy it back from the insurance company.
Story aside, it was the best Buffet A I've ever played, and I had to pass it up for the sake of my conscience.
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Author: Luuk ★2017
Date: 2023-01-20 13:38
Another consideration: the influence of the German/Austrian school in Europe.
Europe has long been 'divided' between French and German/Austrian schools. These schools are believed to have a different tone concept, with French sound being more 'clear' and German more 'mellow'.
These sound concepts are influencing each other. A 'mellow French sound' is easier found with the RC.
Regards,
Luuk
Philips Symphonic Band
The Netherlands
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Author: ruben
Date: 2023-01-21 00:46
Donald: Did the Buffet R13 exist in 1964? I know that until a certain date, there was only Buffet: no variety of models. I have a fine Buffet that I sometimes play with no reference to model. Does that mean it is pre-60s?
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: donald
Date: 2023-01-21 01:46
R13s were developed in 1955 and unleashed upon the world soon after.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-01-23 03:26
Luuk wrote:
"Another consideration: the influence of the German/Austrian school in Europe.
Europe has long been 'divided' between French and German/Austrian schools. These schools are believed to have a different tone concept, with French sound being more 'clear' and German more 'mellow'.
These sound concepts are influencing each other. A 'mellow French sound' is easier found with the RC."
Hi Luuk,
I think you may have nailed it: sound quality you described matches my feeling about the RC vs R13.
Interestingly, it means that from 1975, when the first RC was presented, most of European players migrated away from R13, while US players have not.
To Donald:
A very accomplished player told me he did not like R13 A clarinets because "they feel stuffy", but "RC A clarinets play very well".
To Liquorice:
I would be happy if, at any time, the notes I play were within 2Hz from "ideal" intonation, like +2 or -2 on a tuner which is a very simplistic way to approach intonation.
After all, Eb and D# are the same frequency on a tuner but are different in real world...
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Author: jthole
Date: 2023-03-19 01:48
m1964 wrote:
> Interestingly, it means that from 1975, when the first RC was
> presented, most of European players migrated away from R13,
> while US players have not.
Maybe not, because before the RC, Buffet offered other models in Europe, like the S-1 and BC20. I don't know if the R13 was ever popular in the Netherlands at all. Besides, in the 1970s, many Dutch clarinettists still played Oehler (or Albert) clarinets.
But when I started taking lessons, in the 1980s, I think the RC was already the most popular professional Buffet model here.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-03-19 23:06
jthole wrote:
>" before the RC, Buffet offered other models
> in Europe, like the S-1 and BC20. I don't know if the R13 was
> ever popular in the Netherlands at all. Besides, in the 1970s,
> many Dutch clarinettists still played Oehler (or Albert)
> clarinets.
>
> But when I started taking lessons, in the 1980s, I think the RC
> was already the most popular professional Buffet model here."
Hi jthole,
Did the Reformed Boehm become very popular in the Netherlands?
If the answer is yes, that would tell me that the players' preference is "German" sound/tone quality.
Which, in turn, can be influenced by the teachers who grew up with Albert/Oehler systems.
Thanks
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Author: jthole
Date: 2023-03-20 17:58
m1964 wrote:
>
> Did the Reformed Boehm become very popular in the Netherlands?
> If the answer is yes, that would tell me that the players'
> preference is "German" sound/tone quality.
I know a few players with Reform Boehm clarinets, but I would say French bore clarinets have become much more common. Buffet Crampon likely did a great job in the 1970s to push (conservatorium) teachers and orchestras towards Boehm (Böhm) clarinets.
What probably doesn't help the Reform Boehm clarinets, is the price difference with French (and Asian) clarinets. That makes them less attainable for amateur and beginning players.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-03-20 22:01
jthole,
Thanks for replying- I noted that the clarinetist from Concergebouw orchestra was using a reformed Boehm (old recording of Mozart's Parto), so I thought those clarinets were widely used.
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Author: jthole
Date: 2023-03-21 02:13
m1964 wrote:
> Thanks for replying- I noted that the clarinetist from
> Concergebouw orchestra was using a reformed Boehm (old
> recording of Mozart's Parto), so I thought those clarinets were
> widely used.
In symphony orchestras and e.g. chamber music yes.
But Reform Boehm clarinets are much more expensive than French clarinets, so they are far less common in concert bands.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-03-21 02:47
yes, I checked Wurlitzer's website- I guess professional players can afford them...
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-03-22 02:29
Of note is that originally 'R13" was the catalogue name of the professional clarinets that were imported to the USA. Maybe there is an historical aspect also.
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2023-03-22 08:17
My understanding is that "reformed Boehm" mostly means a cylindrical bore with Boehm fingerings. One of the reasons they are somewhat expensive is that extra vents are required to help them play in tune with an even-sounding scale. The width of the bore can vary, though, and Würlitzer has gone through different sizes over time. On the RC Buffet bore, I played them for several years, and felt I didn't get a very big sound out of them. It's probably bad taste to entirely blame Buffet for that, though. The Netherlands seems to be a place in which several different styles of clarinets are represented.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-03-22 22:09
dorjepismo wrote:
"My understanding is that "reformed Boehm" mostly means a cylindrical bore with Boehm fingerings. One of the reasons they are somewhat expensive is that extra vents are required to help them play in tune with an even-sounding scale. The width of the bore can vary, though, and Würlitzer has gone through different sizes over time. On the RC Buffet bore, I played them for several years, and felt I didn't get a very big sound out of them. It's probably bad taste to entirely blame Buffet for that, though. The Netherlands seems to be a place in which several different styles of clarinets are represented."
Buffet tradition is a cylindrical bore with (Boehm fingering) too, so there must be more to the reformed Boehm from Wurlitzer or Schwenk and Seggelke.
On their website, S&S write: "Besides the large German bore as a basis for our Model 3000, we offer the typically French bore which differs from the former by having an elongated lower joint cone and a so-called poly cylindrical ratio in the upper joint (model 1000 / 1000+)".
So, by description of models 1000/1000+, it looks similar to RC bore from Buffet.
However, S&S seem to offer almost endless customization.
The clarinet in the following video seems to be reformed Boehm, and I like the sound very much: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3EKYZnwzF4
I do like my RC Prestiges, especially the A clarinet which I bought after playing R13 Prestige, and then a Festival. My RC Prestige sounds better then those two, of course it's my own experience with only three specific instruments.
When I say "better", I mean more in tune, more even in tone (no dull low C#, thanks to the chimney), and more "interesting" tone quality/color.
The Festival did have one thing going for it- it had very easy response. My RC Prestige, however, has similarly easy response but more colorful tone.
Post Edited (2023-03-25 05:58)
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Author: Bill Burnham ★2017
Date: 2023-07-02 23:31
I played on R13s for 40 years and happened to try an RC (RC, not RC Prestige). I liked it a lot and so I play on RCs now --- a North American clarinet who goes against the grain.
One unusual difference in sound between R13s and RCs that I noticed is this. With the R13s (A and Bb), the sound seems to come out all up and down the horn, while with the RC, the sound seems to come out the bell. This wasn't a reason to convert to the RC. I just liked its sound, intonation and feel better. But it was an interesting sensation.
My spare A and Bb are R13s (from 1968). Even after not playing them for a while, I will get them out for a head-to-head comparison sometimes and I still hear the difference. Same mouthpiece (Kaspar 11), same reed (Vandoren traditional) and same ligature (Harrison).
Has anyone else noticed this or am I nuts? If anyone has noticed the same thing, is there an acoustic or any other explanation for it? If your handlers will let you out of the asylum, could you tell me about it?
Bill
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-07-02 23:36
Hi Bill,
I have noticed this with a change of mp. With one mp the sound comes out like scatter gun, exploding wildly all over the room. With another, the sound comes out of the bell, straight as an arrow, and hits the opposite wall, still going in a straight line. It's quite weird, but very interesting.
Jennifer
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Author: pukalo
Date: 2023-07-03 01:56
SunnyDaze wrote:
> Hi Bill,
>
> I have noticed this with a change of mp. With one mp the sound
> comes out like scatter gun, exploding wildly all over the room.
> With another, the sound comes out of the bell, straight as an
> arrow, and hits the opposite wall, still going in a straight
> line. It's quite weird, but very interesting.
>
> Jennifer
I find that to be the case with the RC vs R13 families. The RC has a "diffuse" sound (with the Divine being the most "diffuse), while the R13 has a "direct" sound (with the Tosca being the most "direct".
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Author: Jarmo Hyvakko
Date: 2023-09-17 12:00
The european preference to softer and more blending sound comes from admiration of german-austrian sound. Therefore the darker-sounding models sell better here.
The german-austrian vs. rest of the Europe style comes simply from the difference of instruments. Oehler vs. Boehm systems. You can't even apply for a job from many german or austrian orchestras using Boehm clarinet!
The reform-boehm clarinet has probably been developed because so many players admire the german-austrian sound. It is basically an attempt to put the Boehm keywork to an Oehler clarinet. Reform Boehm Instrument is also usually played with a german style mouthpiece and reed. The instrument has never been very popular and most orchestras are very reluctant to mix reform and "normal" boehm instruments in their sections.
By the way, when i began to play the clarinet in 1970's, there was a wild variation of different playing styles in Europe. Experimenting with vibrato was quite popular. The wildest style, i felt, was British: listen from The YouTube these two names: Frederick Thurston and Reginald Kell (a sort of before/after!) Perhaps the most traditional way of playing the Boehm Instrument can be found in the US?
Jarmo Hyvakko, Principal Clarinet, Tampere Philharmonic, Finland
Post Edited (2023-09-17 12:08)
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2023-09-18 00:30
Jarmo: you make some interesting points, but I have trouble with some of them, specifically from a UK perspective. Alex Allen of Clarinetsdirect has this to say about the RC/R13 difference: "The RC ... features a slighter wider initial polycylindrical bore than the R13. Most players find this results in a warmer, more 'spread' tone, than the R13". I'm aware that 'spread' is used as a derogatory term by US players, so I would phrase it slightly differently: for me, the RC gives a warmer and less brittle tone than the R13, with some of the clarity of sound that was always a virtue of the best British playing back in the 1010 days (in which I would not generally include Reginald Kell: an original and interesting artist, but very much a one-off).
I therefore find the RC to be the more resonant instrument, making a bigger sound with more projection. This seems to me to be the opposite of the German school. If you want a Boehm instrument that tries to go in the German direction, you would surely look to the Yamaha CSG. But this is very different to the RC. I got one on trial, but when I took it to orchestra and asked my 2nd for their reaction, they were very clear: "it's nowhere near as mellow".
As usual, worth recalling in all this that all instruments are quite individual. My RC Bb is from 1979 and quite heavily played. I'd be in the market for replacing it with a new and shiny one, but all the modern ones I've tried don't sound as good.
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Author: Jarmo Hyvakko
Date: 2023-09-18 11:20
John! Keep going with that old one!! My RC Prestiges date to early 80's, professionally played the whole time by myself, and i am not planning to change them. Somehow these old ones are so much more resonant than the new ones, that i have started to think, that they are not "blown out", they have just been "played in".
Jarmo Hyvakko, Principal Clarinet, Tampere Philharmonic, Finland
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Author: Patrick
Date: 2023-09-21 03:57
I just got a hold of Buffet Divine. I am in the US and was accustomed to playing r13’s and tosca’s. I am a military musician so that is why I have played on the various models. My complaint against the tosca is that it tunes much lower than the r13 in general. I do find I like the greenline models much better than the regular model. The Divine does have a nice mellow soft sound. As I guess this is very similar to the RC bore, maybe the RC bore is more my taste now. I still feel I get good high over tones and can still focus the sound as well.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-09-21 20:58
Yes, the Divine is based on RC bore; maybe Divine gets more attention during manufacturing process or gets individual tuning?
I think of the Divine as of upscale RC Prestige.
I do feel that both of my RC Prestige sounds more "interesting" than my "old" R13 Prestiges did. Also have more stable tuning.
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Author: Djudy
Date: 2023-09-23 20:31
I'm not playing much Bb anymore, being occupied with the alto and now the bass, but when I do/have, it's been on a 2002 RC Prestige (purchased used from a classical player) whose mellow sound and good tuning I appreciate as well as it's adaptability to jazz swing music. I got to try a bunch of Buffet TOTL instrumants last year at clarinet camp and really loved the Divine, played like butter and sounded great. Was surprised I didn't like the Tosca or Festival. Guess m1964's post explains that. And while I've seen a lot of pro Buffets on the second hand market here, I've only spotted one Divine, in A, !
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