 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Klarnt
Date: 2022-12-30 22:19
I'm not very happy with the tone I produce in the Clarion register on the Bass Clarinet. My upper Clarion sounds like a Saxophone while my lower Clarion sounds very electric. For most of the Chalumeau register I get a very full & powerful sound, which I like, and I wish that I could make the upper register match that timbre. It should be noted that in both registers the long pinky notes all sound... thin? In other words the pinky notes aren't as full as the same notes on my Soprano.
How can I make the Clarion register sound less electric, bright, or buzzy?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-12-30 23:11
Assuming you just picked up bass for the very first time, that is all part of "finding yourself" with the bass clarinet. It DOES NOT play like a soprano. It is good to hear that you have an upper clarion. The very first time I picked one up to play a show, I couldn't even get those notes! You have to just keep picking it up, blowing on it and keep listening and adjusting. I think it will always sound less satisfying to you than others at any distance but you'll improve quite quickly. I did a show and bass orchestral gig within months of my first foray into bass.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2022-12-31 01:55
Assuming with Paul that this is your first experience with bass clarinet, it's at least as important as it is on soprano clarinet to be sure you aren't fighting your equipment. It's important to have a mouthpiece and reeds that are functional, which may mean getting the opinion of a player with more bass experience about something that will work, knowing that you can always make changes after your bass chops are more established and you know what you're looking for.
Also, it should go without saying, the instrument needs to be in good working condition. Any compensations you may be making just to get the clarion notes to speak on a balky instrument may cause some of the issues you've mentioned. The fact that the low register comes out strongly doesn't guarantee a well-adjusted instrument.
Bass clarinet can be much fussier than a Bb clarinet about pretty much everything.
Karl
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Author: Klarnt
Date: 2022-12-31 05:09
I have played the Bass Clarinet intermittently. I first started in 2015, and swiftly went back to the Soprano because it was too big to play. I then picked it up again in 2019 - 2021, but after several years of dissatisfaction with the unchallenging music being given I decided to quit.
In this year long gap I only played on the Soprano. Over time I started to miss playing the Bass Clarinet, and recently I got the opportunity to play it with an Ensemble again.
Ironically this is probably the best I've ever played on the Bass Clarinet! I used to always blast off to the moon when trying to play the upper Clarion, but now it doesn't squeak and it plays in tune (for the most part). Maybe it's because I'm having fun or my quest for a Jazzier tone on the Soprano has loosened me up a bit. Regardless over the years my tone in the Clarion register on Bass Clarinet has remained electric, but I'll keep at it and some day I'll 'find myself'.
Vandoren Reed Size 3
Vandoren BD5 Mouthpiece
Kessler 2nd Generation Low C
Post Edited (2022-12-31 05:28)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-12-31 06:40
So when you say, "blast off," what do you mean? Also, when you say "electric," what do you mean? I assume something negative but can you be more specific?
You list the Kessler bass as your equipment. Have you played other bass clarinets? Why did you choose the Kessler? Have you access to other mouthpieces? Why did you choose the BD5? Have you tried softer reeds than the #3 Vandoren? I assume the standard blue box Vandoren......have you tried the V21s?
................Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2022-12-31 06:44)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2022-12-31 07:05
In my limited experience with Chinese-made bass clarinets (of which the Kessler is one of many 'brands'), they sounded fairly lousy in the clarion register, similar to student-model Bundys in that regard. I would describe the sound as "honky" or "saxophonish", although decent sax players would and should be offended by that term.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2022-12-31 08:20
DS,
I'm a decent sax player but I'm not offended! It is what it is.
HRL
PS How have you been? Since I retired, no more trips to DC. Oh well.
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Author: Klarnt
Date: 2022-12-31 10:51
Sorry for the confusion, I should have been more clear.
By "blast off" I just meant the note went up to the next partial. So instead of sounding like a Clarion note, it was more akin to an Altissimo pitch. Probably caused by too much jaw pressure, not enough corners.
As for "electric" it's a lot harder to explain. That's just the word that comes to mind... When playing the lower Clarion it just feels like the instrument is 'rattling' as opposed to 'healthily vibrating' ('this' is the best I've got...)? It's really hard to put into words. Some other characteristics to describe the lower Clarion would be Thin and Buzzy. I guess those notes also tend to be very VERY sharp in tuning -I can't even lip it down to green with my embouchure nor voicing. The difference in tuning between lower Clarion & the corresponding Chalumeau is very extreme; the E/B is the worst offender. I don't mean to go on a tangent, but I was once told that "good tuning leads to good tone; poor tuning leads to bad tone". I wonder if the sharp tuning gives a better idea of what I'm talking about tone wise?
I used to play on a Vito Bass Clarinet, absolutely hated it. The Kessler is a massive upgrade in basically every regard. I chose Kessler because I wanted to play down to a Low C (which I actually use a decent amount), and it wasn't too much more expensive to other student model Bass Clarinets like Jupiter or Yamaha that only went down to Low Eb. Further, Michael Lowenstern reviewed the horn, and he gave me a good impression on Kessler. For its price, I like it. I have only used one other mouthpiece, but in general I don't have much access to other Bass Clarinet mouthpieces. I chose a BD5 because a retired Clarinetist recommended it to me, and it played much better than my first one. The BD5 seemed to have helped the tuning in the lower Chalumeau, as well as with projecting a mighty loud sound. To be specific, the lower Chalumeau tends to be flat, but now it's really just the Low F and especially Low E that are the main 'problem notes'. Like their Clarion brethren they also have a thin ugly tone, and are widely out of tune (FLAT -at that point I think it's the design of the instrument). With the BD5 mouthpiece I can easily get the rest of the lower Chalumeau in tune. With the reeds I am referring to the standard blue box: I have tried 2.5 reeds, too soft. Sometimes I get a size 3 reed that feels too soft... but a box of 3.5 has proven too hard so that's awkward... I have not tried V21s; what's the difference between it and the standard blue box?
Post Edited (2022-12-31 10:52)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-12-31 15:33
Thank you for sharing in detail. That is helpful.
I have last played bass about three years ago and don't own one so I have to sorta remember what's going on. However, I would tend to think that you are putting too much energy into the embouchure in general. A guess of mine would be that you are pulling out quite a bit at the neck (if not, then I am wrong). The suggestion about tone and tuning is true BUT doesn't directly get to the point. When one is "biting" (sorry to use that term but it is also more direct) it begets more biting. As an early student (speaking more for the soprano......but same idea) the low chalumeau was very sharp on EVERY HORN. As I learned to "throttle down" on the embouchure energy, the intonation became more even throughout the horn (mainly, the long tube and short tube notes matched much better in tuning than before I allowed myself to relax. So what happens is that you tune to the relaxed embouchure and suddenly the long tube notes and short tube notes match in pitch and timbre much better. This also helps playing wider intervals much easier.
Try to relax, and tune the lowest notes while your embouchure is relaxed. Then see what the open G is like in pitch comparison Once you can play that comparison evenly in pitch and tone, then see what the G sitting on top of the staff is like and match that to the low E, low F and the open G. Of course any further exercises you can come up with that do similar work will help a lot.
Also with this in mind, if you still have the original mouthpiece you used, it may be helpful to see how that one allows you to play more relaxed and evenly from short tube notes to long tube notes
The Vandoren V21s are smoother and have more color to their sound (in my opinion). You'll notice that the bark is cut down to a straight line below the vamp. This helps the reed play "easier."
I would say that in general bass is harder to wrangle than soprano on all points particularly with regard to making everything play evenly in tone and pitch. Just work slowly and at a moderate volume until things start to make sense.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: donald
Date: 2023-01-01 15:29
Check (or get a more experience player/tech to check) the register mechanism. In both the "register key or Bb" and the "upper register key or lower register key which also is used for Bb" type mechanisms you sometimes get a situation where one pad opens VERY SLIGHTLY when it's supposed to be closed. This causes havoc with upper register partials and makes it very difficult, if not impossible, to play the upper register.
The same thing can happen with a saxophone mechanism, and any people who teach Saxophone eventually encounter this- most often caused by neck alignment issues (esp on cheap saxophones where the bottom part of the neck key gets bent out of shape easily).
If both pads open at the same time it needs to be fixed. Sometimes the pad is lifting a distance just the thickness of a piece of paper... even this is enough to mess up the register exchange.
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Author: graham
Date: 2023-01-01 18:56
Are you judging your tone from a decent recording of it, or just how it sounds to you when playing? I would try a recording as a start.
graham
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Author: Klarnt
Date: 2023-01-02 01:37
"A guess of mine would be that you are pulling out quite a bit at the neck."
At most I pull out 9mm in an indoor setting, but in the past I usually had it less than that. Is 9mm too much for Bass? I typically play slightly flat on the both horns since comparatively my "normal" is my section's "loud". On my Soprano I'm usually completely pushed in, while on Bass the amount the neck pushed out depends on how flat I'm playing in the Chalumeau... It's been an issue I've always had, with the severity fluctuating over the years, and I worry if this is indicative of a greater problem? Maybe this will give some insight into my tonal dissatisfaction?
"Are you judging your tone from a decent recording of it, or just how it sounds to you when playing? I would try a recording as a start." So far I have mostly been judging how it sounds when playing the instrument. On my tuner there is an analysis feature in which it plays back an audio recording of my playing, and of the few times I have used it I've found the recording to be unpleasant to the ears. Later today I will try out your suggestion with an actual microphone.
"try legere reeds -makes bass clarinet eaiser to play in every aspect"
I really REALLY want to like Synthetic reeds! I haven't tried any on the Bass, but on the Soprano I haven't been able to get them to work. European, Signature, Classical of various sizes... either the pitch is even more flat, not enough projection, or I get questionable responsiveness. Each time I sadly go back to cane reeds, but I try to remain optimistic. I'll have to try one on my Bass. Which Legere reed did you use for Bass?
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Author: Klarnt
Date: 2023-01-02 02:09
So using my Blue Snowball mic the tone sounds way better! A bit less Saxophone and a hint of Clarinet. Still a very bright tone, but in the very amateur recording setup I at least can't hear the buzzing. When I play I still hear it, so there's the main difference.
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2023-01-02 17:55
Legere Studio tenor sax reed. 2.75 strength… but 1/4 sizes were supposed to be phased out.
Also “voicing” helps get a more sop clarinet-like tone in the clarion. On my Kessler 1st gen, I feel like I am inflating my nasal cavities when the sound is good. On my Selmer 37, I do not need to work as hard to get the same sound.
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
Post Edited (2023-01-02 17:59)
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Author: graham
Date: 2023-01-02 18:59
Glad the recording helped. If you’re using Vandoren traditional may I suggest trying V12? I don’t favour V21 on my bass set up. Also consider brands of Tenor Sax reeds as these can sometimes sound more generous in tone.
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Author: EbClarinet
Date: 2023-01-03 06:22
from a composer's POV, that particular register is sonorous - getting the bass above the staff takes more so it's gonna b heard a whole lot more (especially if there's more than 2-3) - I've used it in a concert band piece and it's loud - I would like then to and English or French horn in the same register
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/mbtldsongministry/
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Author: Max S-D
Date: 2023-01-04 00:33
Make sure you aren't biting to get those notes, since that will thin them out. You can get away with that on soprano clarinet, but the bass won't tolerate it. Staying loose and relaxed is really important. Also, make sure you are voicing them right. The fact that you aren't "blasting off" to higher partials (I like that phrasing) means that you are probably in the general vicinity of where you want to be voicing, but try using a bit more and a bit less arch in the back of the tongue to see if that can remove some of the stridency you are hearing. Both situations can add stridency of different flavors, so try varying that and seeing what changes.
Lastly, remember that you you have your head clamped (via the embouchure) to a big instrument, which is a lot more of a mechanical contraption than a soprano clarinet and has a lot more tube than a soprano clarinet. Rattles and buzzes that might be driving you crazy could be transmitted as vibration via your jaw and may not be very present the sound that the audience will hear from more than a few feet away. Also, those right hand notes are very far away! Sometimes the left hand notes can sound more strident by comparison just because they are much closer to our ears.
A big part of playing all instruments is learning how what we hear and feel as players translates to what the audience hears, but I find the physical dimensions of the bass clarinet can make that difference quite a bit greater than on soprano clarinet or any of the saxophones.
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Author: DougR
Date: 2023-01-14 03:22
Wow, lots of advice! I love bass, love playing it and am constantly listening for ways to improve my playing.
The clarion (IMO) is the register that kind of separates real professional-level players from the less skilled and/or less practiced. When I listen to Youtube bassists, especially symphonic players who do little "this-is-the-bass-clarinet" explainers, I'm alway struck by the "ping" their clarion registers have, and I'm attempting to emulate it in my practice.
One thing I might try, were I you, is to set up a lesson or two either in person or via Zoom, with a top-level symphonic bassist; my theory is that whatever they're doing to hold a chair in a major symphony, I would want to know about. This includes the reeds, mouthpieces, etc., they use--but it ALSO includes their air and their oral cavity (particularly tongue placement), because these all have a major impact on tone quality.
(By way of illustration, listen to THIS guy. His commentary is entirely in Italian, which I don't speak a word of, but listen to his tone! That right there is a tone quality I personally aspire to, and it's good to 'bookmark' it in the brain.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClgLhpSgFoM
Also, I LOVE this guy--he plays more excerpts, over a wider dynamic range than the clip above, which tells you a lot about how the bass ought to sound top to bottom:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21bcWIWJvFM&t=1057s
I've studied with some serious heavy hitters on bass, and most of them follow Joe Allard's advice on tongue position (similar to Max's point, above), which is: keep the tongue high in the oral cavity to more efficiently direct the air; project your supported air (ALWAYS supported) to an imaginary point across the room; and never play on a reed that chokes (closes up) when you try to put a lot of air through it.
I personally find the more aware of high tongue position I am, the more 'ping' I hear in my clarion register. Try it, see if it improves your sound.
Good luck! It's a beautiful instrument, and best wishes for finding your sound!
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-01-15 22:25
A lot of very good comments above , but I just want to add that if you take any new bass to a tech ,they will find some issues with it . ( sounds like going to a psychologist ! ) These reputable brand Chines-made horns like Kessler or Ridenour play pretty damn well for the price , but they are likely to come in need of a fair bit of adjustment work . Bass clarinets are very shmicky in all their involved linkages and fine adjustments ,so it's fundamental to get someone experienced to thoroughly check them over . If you don't, then you won't know if any playing problems are you or the horn .
I'm sure you've already covered this angle......I just thought I'd say, as I didn't see mention of you having had the bass regulated .
I agree that the Legere reeds sound great on the bass and offer a helpful consistency for learning to master the registers.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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