 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Verdi
Date: 2022-12-20 05:56
Hi, I’m a new poster here but have greatly enjoyed various discussions lately, packed with great insights and useful info.
I have won an eBay auction for a 19th century set of clarinets in a wooden box, and would like some help to identify age and provenance, and advice on best way to preserve them (restore to full playing conditions, oil the wood, leave as is…)
Also, it would be good to know if they are worth anything.
Post Edited (2022-12-20 06:10)
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Author: Verdi
Date: 2022-12-20 06:01
A bit if info and background:
The clarinets come from Bendigo Victoria AU, the seller is a vintage shop that cleared a deceased estate but, focusing on mid century furniture, had no clue nor interest in valuing this item, so the owner set up an eBay auction at $0.99, and I won it at AU$365.
The long and the short clarinets (I don’t know the pitch) have various trade marks on body, barrel, bell and mouthpiece: S A Chappell, S A Chappell 52 New Bond St London, E Albert A Brussell, Approved by Mr Lazarus. The short clarinet’s serial number is 2300. Both have cracks on the barrels but are still airtight. No other cracks anywhere, and they show very little signs of play. I assume that both clarinets are an early Eugene Albert manufacture as they have the rings (or glasses) patented by Chappell as an improvement on the Müller clarinet, but don’t have the patent C# characteristic of the Albert system. Would guess 1850/1860?
The middle clarinet is a straight up Müller system made by Goutrot Ainè a Paris, so I assume it’s a bit older (1930/40?). It has absolutely no cracks although it’s been played more extensively, and comes with a quirky wooden mouthpiece cap. The ligature has a failed weld repair
I tested the three clarinet for about ten minutes each with their own mouthpieces and a v12 reed 3 strength ( a modern mouthpiece won’t fit). The two Alberts have some trouble on the high notes but have a nice warm tone. I was surprised by the Goutrot’s ability to play flawlessly from top to bottom with a tone I never experienced on a clarinet.
There is no cork on tenons, but a sort of twine that still seems to seal well.
The case was probably the most interesting piece for me. It is in an incredibly good condition for the age, the velvet is very clean and locks, latches and hinges are well built and work like clockworks. It makes me think the the set was owned by a professional and must have cost quite a bit at the time. There are several secret compartments that house a cleaning rod and cloth, a lovely reed case with six reeds, more loose reeds, two ointment tubes and a mysterious flat stone.
Any thoughts? I loved the whole thing and felt like a kid at Christmas when I opened it, but it would be nice to get more info, thoughts on the rarity of the set, and some advice on how to treat and restore it. Many thanks
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Author: Verdi
Date: 2022-12-20 06:05
I tried to attach several photos, but can’t make it work
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Author: m1964
Date: 2022-12-20 11:41
Nice looking old instruments- I'd guess Eb, Bb and A.
Probably not practical to play them but nice to have as a piece of clarinet history.
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Author: ACCA
Date: 2022-12-20 12:32
based on its size compared to the others, the smallest clarinet looks to me like a C clarinet rather than an Eb.
All 3 are probably high pitched- try playing a long B natural on the middle one (ie concert A) and it will probably show around 452 HZ on a tuner app.
So, you'll have a very hard time finding any setting where you can play them with anyone else. Therefore value is not too much. But nice to have for the history behind them.
Maybe busking with MP3 backing tracks with altered pitch?
good luck
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Author: Verdi
Date: 2022-12-20 13:15
Thanks for your replies. Yes they are definitely high pitch so the value as a practical instrument is minimal, and clarinets, contrary to violins, lose playability and relevance with age. But I’m intrigued by the two Eugene Alberts, as they seem to be from a short period between the Chappell acquisition of the ring tone hole patent and the invention of the patent c#. It would be cool to claim I own two Albert clarinets made before the Albert system was a thing
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Author: Verdi
Date: 2022-12-24 04:08
The Bb Gautrot Aine clarinet (middle on photos) is a 12 key Muller system, not 13key. Any help with dating the manufacture? Also, can anyone give advice on restoring these clarinets? Thanks
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Author: m1964
Date: 2022-12-24 07:44
If not going to play them, maybe it would be better to leave them in current condition.
Otherwise, any good clarinet tech should be able to work on them.
I still think that the short one is an Eb, considering it is quite shorter than the other too.
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Author: Verdi
Date: 2022-12-24 09:44
Thanks. I’m not familiar with Eb clarinets and could not find a fingering chart online, but the lowest note on the small horn equals an F# on a Bb Boehm.
I’d love to bring them back to full playable conditions-the small and medium don’t need much as they play well as is, the A clarinet may have some leaks but all keys and pads are in place.
While there is plenty of options in the US and Europe, I can’t find any technician who specialises in antique instruments where I live in Melbourne Australia. My local technician recently refused to touch a 1951 Boosey Emperor I brought in for service saying “I don’t touch old crap as I don’t want to be blamed if they break”. So he is of no use.
I’d love to take care of them and I’m tempted to at least oil them properly, but doing that may compromise repairs they may need.
If you don’t mind me asking, what would you do? Would you service or leave as is? Would you polish wood and keywork? The patina looks good and is uniform across the three horns, but I’ve seen people on YouTube who polished antique instruments with good results.
The pads seem to be stuffed leather in the Müller style, so I guess replacing them with modern pads is not an option
Many thanks for your input, I’m in love with these little instruments but don’t really know what to do. Cheers
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2022-12-24 16:47
I've read or heard somewhere that a brownish tint in the Grenadilla wood of clarinets is a sign that the wood has gotten very dry and should be oiled. I don't know if that's universally agreed on.
If it's true, then the instruments should get oiled. A good tech would know.
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2022-12-24 17:21
I think the small one must be a C clarinet then. Eb clarinets play 5 half steps higher than a Bb, so the lowest written E played on Eb clarinet is an A on the Bb clarinet. C clarinets play 2 half steps above Bb clarinets, so a low E on a C instrument would be the F# on the Bb.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2022-12-24 19:08
Verdi,
I'm in Emerald, Vic. I have a collection of B&H and other instruments and do my own repairs and restoration. I'd be glad to sort out your Emperor if you like.
Tony F.
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Author: Verdi
Date: 2022-12-25 05:25
Yes it must be a C. All three are high pitch so a tad shorter than modern equivalent clarinets, but this is considerably longer than a modern Eb instrument
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Author: Verdi
Date: 2022-12-25 05:47
Thanks Tony. It would be great to share contacts with you, hope we are allowed on this forum.
I had my Emperor serviced somewhere else, but I would happily see you for future maintenance and advice. Also, I hope you can help me with these three “Jurassic”clarinets. I live in Fawkner.
I’m actually trying to sell the Emperor to fund the purchase of those three. I saw one for sale at OzWind for $1,500 so I posted it online for $500, but I saw very little interest. I guess 99% of online clarinet buyers are students or their parents, so they would have no interest beyond plastic Yamahas or Buffets.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2022-12-25 23:20
With a stamp that says endorsed by Mr Lazarus then I would put those around 1870. Henry Lazarus was the godfather of British clarinet playing and played Albert clarinets only trying Boehm instruments towards the very end of his life but never performing on them. Contemporary accounts of Lazarus’ tone are extremely complementary. It is said that Albert clarinets produced a big, full and rich woody tone.
As others have said they are clearly A, Bb and C.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Verdi
Date: 2022-12-26 05:53
Attachment: E82E4E67-7A23-48FB-8590-C452467C3151.jpeg (274k)
Thanks Peter. Both the C and A clarinets are marked “E Albert Brussels” and “S A Chappell on all parts, but only the C Clarinet is marked “Approved by Mr Lazarus” on the bell. Also the C is the only one with a serial number, 2300. I believe they are early Alberts as they lack the “patent C#” (double cup below the right pinky) but it’s hard to know if these were sill manufactured after the advent of the C#.
The Bb is a 12key (not 13) Muller system, marked Gautrot Aine, so I guess it is older. In its current conditions the Gautrot is the best player of the three, it produces a deep woody tone
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2022-12-26 09:37
Hi Verdi,
If you click on my name at the top of this message you'll see my email address. Send me an email and we'll take it from there.
I think your price for an Emperor is a bit on the high side, they don't normally sell for that sort of price when you consider that they haven't been made since 1984 and that the Emperor was an intermediate-level instrument. I sold 2 last year in good playing condition for $225 each.
Tony F.
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