 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Noodler100
Date: 2022-12-14 22:32
Hi, does anyone have any recommendations on a good company to use to send a clarinet safely from the UK to France for repair?
Thanks a lot
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2022-12-15 02:02
With the state of the postal service currently here in the UK you would better off traveling there and hand delivering.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: m1964
Date: 2022-12-15 03:51
I can't believe that a clarinet needs to be sent from the UK into another state for repair.
There should be ample choices of repair techs in the UK.
Chris P. (a contributor to this board) is one of them and there should be many more technicians in the UK who can repair a clarinet to a high standard.
In any case, if the clarinet is valuable it needs to be insured, which can add a significant amount to the repair charge.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2022-12-15 04:22
It would be interesting to understand the nature of the repair you have in mind. If you've got a long standing relationship with your previous repairer and have moved to the UK, then I can understand why you'd stick with them.
If, however, you have a Buffet and plan on sending it back to the factory to be serviced or overhauled, then you're only going to end up with a clarinet in the same state as any factory finished Buffet which as is well known, not great.
And posting a clarinet at the coldest time of year anywhere is only asking for trouble and never advisable. How would you like to spend days (if not weeks what with how busy things are right now) in some freezing cold warehouse freezing your bits off?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-12-15 08:40
This thread might help a bit. I looked into shipping recently.
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=500983&t=500834
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Author: JTJC
Date: 2022-12-15 15:23
I'm in the UK. Recently I wanted my clarinets looked at by a repairer I trusted. Posting was too risky and wouldn’t have insured the instruments. The solution was to drive the 50 miles there and another 50 back to drop them off. Same journey to collect them a while later. I worked out the petrol was cheaper than the postage would have been and far cheaper and more convenient that train plus bus/taxi to where i was going. Yes I lost time as well but the journey was easy enough and the result ideal.
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Author: Hurstfarm
Date: 2022-12-16 02:19
I’d agree with the previous posters that it’s hard to imagine why you’d need to take the international option rather than having the repair done in the UK, as it will increase the travel time, risks and cost. There are some excellent repairers around, at both ends of the country. That said, FWIW I’ve used both UPS and Royal Mail for instruments successfully in the past, but the latter obviously isn’t an option at the moment.
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Author: ACCA
Date: 2022-12-17 13:10
I agree that you'd be best of specifying what area of the UK you're in, and surely someone in the forum can recommend a local tech based on their own experience.
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Author: ACCA
Date: 2022-12-17 13:11
And if you happen to be south of London, I can recommend www.jmrepairs.co.uk for excellent service and workmanship.
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Author: Noodler100
Date: 2022-12-17 22:07
Thanks all. All makes sense. It’s a Selmer clarinet bought in Paris with a small crack that’s appeared post break-in and still under warranty so will be fixed at their workshop. Totally hear you about the waiting time in warehouses. I’m dubious about that myself and haven’t quite decided yet. I may still take it out in person but just checking all options. I have the instrument insured worldwide so that parts all ok.
Thanks all.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2022-12-18 00:41
In that perhaps a day trip to Paris is in order?
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2022-12-18 00:46
How exactly did they say they'll they fix the crack?
Will they fill it in or replace the whole joint?
And how does the crack impact on its playability?
If they replace the entire joint, then you'll no longer have the same clarinet you chose when you bought it and you'll have to play it in all over again which is never a good thing to do at this time of year.
If it's a crack that's fixable (and most cracks are fixable even if they appear serious), then it can be repaired and the instrument is still that same instrument and still retains the character you specifically chose it for. It's worth seeing if they can reimburse you if you have it repaired instead of having to send it back to them.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2022-12-18 07:35
Chris P wrote:
>... If they replace the entire joint, then you'll no longer have
> the same clarinet you chose when you bought it and you'll have
> to play it in all over again which is never a good thing to do
> at this time of year...
If Selmer replaces a joint, would it carry the same s/n as the original one?
I guess, Selmer would supply a joint and the keys would need to be transferred from the old joint, new pads installed.
I do agree with Chris P. that the clarinet will probably play differently after a joint replacement, tuning may change too.
If the crack is repaired, the re-sale value (at least in the US) would be lower, if that is a consideration at all.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2022-12-18 20:07
They would most likely stamp the existing serial number on the transplanted joint rather than giving it a whole new one. Buffet do that when they transplant top joints when carried out under warranty as do others.
It's not always necessary to replace all the existing pads on a top joint transplant when transferring and refitting the keywork if they can be reseated, provided they line up correctly with the bedplaces instead of ending up having double impressions on them. The domed cork speaker key pad will probably have to be replaced as they often don't line up unless you get extra lucky.
With CNC machining used in setting out the joints and also facing off the pillars, most clarinets made using that instead of having the pillars faced off by hand will guarantee most keys will go straight on with next to no refitting between the pillars as all the distances between the pillars should be the same on all the same models. It doesn't take into account the amount the pillars have moved due to changes in humidity when the wood swells and shrinks which affects the trill and side keys, speaker key and throat A key far more than the main action ring keys and thumb ring, throat G#, C#/G# and LH3 'sliver' Eb/Bb key.
Resale value on any cracked clarinet will be lower even if it's been done well as it's cosmetic and the quality of the repair will dictate that, although the instrument would be less likely to crack in that same area (but that's not to say it won't crack again somewhere else) and resale value won't be massively impacted if the repair has been done well.
With some top joint transplants, the bores may not always line up at the middle joint where the end of the top joint tenon meets the lower joint socket. I had a 1954 CT which had a top joint transplant done in 1956 and the bores didn't line up with the bridge key correctly lined up. If the joints were rotated by a fair amount and the bridge key was completely disengaged, only then did the bores lined up perfectly.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: graham
Date: 2022-12-19 17:11
Hi Chris
What’s the sonic effect of the bores of top and bottom not aligning?
graham
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2022-12-19 22:04
Very little, although it's something you don't really want to see on a pro level clarinet.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2022-12-20 17:30
Best check with them as they may use TNT or a similar courier.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Noodler100
Date: 2022-12-27 17:24
Thanks for all the comments everyone. I’m with Peter here and will take the instrument back in person. Courier is too much of a risk for me as the instrument is playing really well. And that means to the points made on the possibility of a new joint: if that’s what needs to happen I won’t be thrilled but will work through it with them if that’s where this all goes. My gut feeling is they can fix this.
I’ll let you know!
Cheers everyone,
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2022-12-28 15:39
I reckon you're making a huge mistake as you state "the instrument is playing really well", so that to me means it's just a minor cosmetic crack rather than a significant one that's compromising the playability and structure and one that could easily be sealed with a small amount of superglue wicked into the crack.
And also you're making a massive mistake if the joint is going to be replaced and you'll end up having to play in a brand new top joint at the worst possible tine of year.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarimad
Date: 2022-12-29 13:00
UPS is the only courier company here in the UK that will insure musical instruments in transit worldwide but limit the insurance to £1000.
Hope that's of some use.
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Author: Noodler100
Date: 2023-01-06 00:17
Thanks Chris. I totally hear you. They’re not going to do any work before talking to me. The crack is about 1mm wide in the metal tenon cap on the lower joint. But the crack hasn’t gone through to the bore. I need to bear in mind the warranty on the instrument which is why I’d like them to take a look. If you were to fix this sort of crack, do you mind me asking how you would fix it?
Many thanks
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-01-06 14:31
Can you post a photo of it as that'll give me a much clearer idea what can be done. I naturally assumed the crack was on the top joint as that's far more common than a lower joint crack - if it's the metal lined socket, then that's just one risk of having metal lined sockets on any instrument as wood moves with humidity changes but metal doesn't move at all.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Noodler100
Date: 2023-01-09 01:39
Hi Chris, thank you. Here it is. The crack in actually less than a mm, I’d estimate 0.5mm.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-01-09 02:36
That's hardly an issue at all if it's the lower joint tenon ring that's split. It's more of a cosmetic thing than a structural thing as the remainder of the metal tenon ring will keep the tenon in check.
I've got a Series 9 where the top tenon ring has split in the same manner as that and it's not causing any problems with how the instrument plays. It can be replaced, but it's not causing any problems as it is. I sealed it up with superglue to prevent water collecting inside it.
It can be machined off and replaced with a new tenon ring if it is a problem, but on the whole it's hardly anything to be concerned about as it's mostly cosmetic. It doesn't warrant replacing the entire lower joint given the nature and location of it.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-01-09 04:46
Chris P wrote:
> That's hardly an issue at all if it's the lower joint tenon
> ring that's split. It's more of a cosmetic thing than a
> structural thing as the remainder of the metal tenon ring will
> keep the tenon in check.
...
> It can be machined off and replaced with a new tenon ring if it
> is a problem, but on the whole it's hardly anything to be
> concerned about as it's mostly cosmetic. It doesn't warrant
> replacing the entire lower joint given the nature and location
> of it.
Hi Chris,
Do you know how those metal rings are installed on new clarinets? On my Buffet, the ring looks like it was machined from a solid piece of metal.
At the factory, do they press the ring onto the tenon end or slide it on and then the compress the internal shoulder of the ring?
Thanks.
I do understand the OP wanting to fix it while under warranty. Cosmetic issue or not.
Post Edited (2023-01-09 04:56)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2023-01-09 09:47
>> I do understand the OP wanting to fix it while under warranty. Cosmetic issue or not. <<
You (i.e. anyone) can both understand it and recommend against it.
If it's just the metal tenon ring that is split (the wood under it is fine) then I have to agree with Chris that it's beyond overkill to ship it back to them. Honestly even if there is a crack in thee wood I would consider having it repaired locally... depending on pretty much what Chris already mentioned.
Big companies often have a lot of bureaucracy for these things, for better or worse, and you have to go through their official channels if you want to use the warranty.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-01-09 17:00
Tenon tip rings are usually stamped from sheet metal and made to be an interference fit on the tenon rings, then spun over the tenon rings to keep them in place, so they're often already work hardened and can therefore split because of metal fatigue when the wood swells.
The least troublesome cracks on clarinets are lower joint tenon cracks and most can be repaired simply by wicking superglue into them and then the natural compression of the wood will keep things solid. Metal tenon tip rings do reinforce thin-walled tenons like the lower joint one and safeguard it against cracks which are often caused when the tenon is pushed onto a bench peg with too much force. That same force can be used to the advantage that it will open up tenon cracks to allow superglue to wick into them.
There are those for and against metal tenon rings, tip rings, tenon cracks, whatever you like to call them, but well fitted ones will protect the tenons from cracking and provided they're sealed as they're fitted, that'll prevent water collecting and getting into the end grain which is often the cause of binding tenons.
I still think this is a total non-issue and if Selmer can replace just the metal tenon tip ring, then by all means have it done for peace of mind, even though it's something you can ignore.
I've had trouble with the fully metal sleeved middle tenon on Selmers being loose and shifting about which can be felt whilst playing (the C#/G# and LH2 ring key pillar base being the only thing to stop it spinning around), only they're not easy to simply remove and glue back on as they're crimped into a groove cut around the middle of the tenon and can only be machined off in two parts. Then refitted in two pars with the gap in the gap in the middle filled in with superglue and wood dust and machined smooth to form the tenon cork slot (as tenon cork slots should be left completely smooth and not grooved).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-01-10 10:51
To Clarnibass:
I guess there are players who do not care about cosmetic problem with their instrument. I am not one of those- I'd would want the problem fixed, esp. if it is done correctly and free of charge.
To Chris:
thank a lot for explanation on how the metal ring get installed on tenon.
If shipped back to France, maybe it is possible that a new metal ring gets re-installed at the factory or, if done in a repair shop, by the same method as factory would do.
It would be nice to hear from the OP how the clarinet was fixed.
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Author: Noodler100
Date: 2023-04-08 21:37
Hi all
Just thought I’d summarise how this ended up. I decided to take the instrument to Paris instead of shipping, purely on the basis that I didn’t want it out of my sight! It then went to the Selmer workshop and they fitted a new metal tenon ring . I went back a few weeks later to test and collect it and it was just the same as before, nothing worse, nothing better, but the same lovely instrument. So everything worked out okay. The shop in Paris looked after me really well and I can thoroughly recommend them if anyone is interested in the future. Thanks everyone for your advice, and particularly Chris P.
Happy playing everyone!
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Author: Noodler100
Date: 2023-04-10 19:23
Hi Graham, yes by Eurostar, you can get there and back in a day to drop off/pick up and test (just!). Cheers
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