 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: kchan ★2017
Date: 2022-11-23 22:39
Folks,
Does anyone have access to an early release of Clarimate? It's a Buffet (labeled) clarinet "mute" and midi interface. Looks like orders are being taken next week with the release December 15.
https://clarimate.us/
Any thoughts?
Ken
Post Edited (2022-11-23 22:39)
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2022-11-24 00:45
* Shut up and take my money!! *
Getting back into playing after 20 years.
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Ridenour Homage mouthpiece
Rovner Versa ligature
Vandoren V12 #3 - #3.5 reeds
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-11-24 01:10
That looks great. :-)
It's really interesting that it can measure how hard the player is blowing. I would be really interested to know how big a variation there is across the general population of players.
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Author: smokindok
Date: 2022-11-24 03:47
It will be interesting to follow where this goes.
Maybe I am, as usual, too skeptical, but I don't think this will be what a lot of people expect.
My experience with breath-controlled midi instruments is limited to the Yamaha WX5, but I think all the existing options have similar characteristics. The "reed" is not a vibrating reed, but controls pitch by sensing pressure; the key systems, being digitally precise, requires very accurate finger placement to avoid stray intermediate sounds; and the breath control does not have an acoustic wind instrument feel, as far as volume and resistance goes.
Unless this system has somehow overcome these problems, I think playing this instrument will have little resemblance to playing a clarinet. Might be a fun toy, though.
In support of this skepticism, the YouTube video posted by Buffet is disappointing. First off, with Buffet's access to prominent clarinetists, you would think they would use someone other than a student to market the product. And there is no demonstration of the product! Maybe they do not have anyone that can actually play the thing respectably.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rw5mpYmrl9Y
John
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Author: smokindok
Date: 2022-11-24 04:14
Reading through the comments on the Clarimate YouTube video, I don't know what to think. A Mr. Costea makes a comment, which then receives a response from Maxence Fulconis, the R&D person in the video:
Florin Costea: I was really exited that when I first saw this product yesterday i nearly cried I waited so long for this product. Because I cant practice at night. But sadly you can’t use your own reed
1 reply
Maxence Fulconis: You can use your own Reed of course!
There is absolutely no reference to "You can use your own Reed" in the video. All the information I have seen and read mentions using the "active reed", included with the Clarimate. Maybe something got lost in the translation.
If it is true that you can use any reed, that is some fantastic technology, well beyond any existing midi wind instrument. I remain skeptical.
John
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Author: SebastianB
Date: 2022-11-24 04:49
Any way in which you can use your own reed is going to be pointless, as you won't be using it to generate sound.
Having read the user manual it looks to me as though aside from some laudable innovations in applying it to an actual clarinet, this is basically a wind controller, so its usefulness will be restricted to being a pretty cool tool for learning fingerings, and a mediocre competitor as a woodwind MIDI controller.
Somewhere it says it's more sensitive to pitch control than a normal instrument, which makes me wonder whether the magic tube down the horn is sensing light, air movement, or what.
Quite a--bold? strange? --move on Buffet's part, selling these at a discount prior to any reviews or even demos.
Post Edited (2022-11-24 04:57)
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Author: smokindok
Date: 2022-11-24 05:22
Well stated, SebastianB.
I, too, am very curious as to what that tube is sensing. And regarding the pitch control sensitivity, that for me provides one of the steepest learning curves on a pressure sensing "reed" type midi wind instrument. On the rare occasions that I have had to play one in public, I would switch off the lip control and play it as if it was a recorder fipple. If I wanted vibrato, it could be programmed into the synth patch.
My guess is they won't sell many once reviews start hitting social media.
John
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-11-24 09:07
I noticed that one of the photos shows the instrument being played by relatively young children (10 or 11 years old). Maybe it's intended as a silencer for families with relentlessly enthusiasic young players who potentially also have day-sleeping siblings?
We have an electric piano built into our accoustic piano, and whilst it's not at all as fun as playing the actual piano, it can be a life-saver when one family member needs to sleep and another wants to bash the piano.
If it's that kind of think, then I don't think it would need be that subtle, musically.
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2022-11-24 09:28
I would've thought Yamaha would've developed this first based on the success of their Silent Brass systems they started about 25 years ago.
Getting back into playing after 20 years.
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Ridenour Homage mouthpiece
Rovner Versa ligature
Vandoren V12 #3 - #3.5 reeds
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Author: donald
Date: 2022-11-24 15:44
I thought this was April fool joke... you mean those ads are SERIOUS?????
Post Edited (2022-11-24 15:44)
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2022-11-24 19:21
April Fool's isn't for another 4 months...
Getting back into playing after 20 years.
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Ridenour Homage mouthpiece
Rovner Versa ligature
Vandoren V12 #3 - #3.5 reeds
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Author: donald
Date: 2022-11-24 21:39
What? It's not April now?????? Thanks forcthe top secret information.
(On the internet, once something is there it It's there and it doesn'tjust disappearbecause it'snotAoril anymore... on fb you often see memes doing the round then a year later someone sees it and it has a 2nd wind)
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Author: smokindok
Date: 2022-11-24 22:03
Totally with you, Donald, on the April Fools joke thought. It wasn’t until I started searching the web for every and all Clarimate references that I reluctantly conceded that it was likely serious.
John
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Author: donald
Date: 2022-11-25 10:47
It's "serious", but not for "serious musicians". No doubt some way to achieve silent/quiet practice would be useful for many of us, but practice that ignores intonation and the nuance of our own reed/mouthpiece is not really helpful for people trying to achieve an artful result.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-11-25 19:47
I tried an electric violin once and it sounded so beautiful through the headphones. It was just as though I was a professional on stage.
It felt like the difference between using an old manual film DSLR camera, and using a modern point-and-shoot digital camera. But all the brilliance was in the software, not the user.
It made me wonder whether practising on that instrument would have been entirely pointless, as there were no flaws left for me learn to fix.
Maybe the clarimate also has the software to make people sound amazing, without them actuall being involved in the process at all?
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Author: SebastianB
Date: 2022-11-25 22:48
There is some remarkable technology out there that can "upgrade" an input sound to sound like something mapped from a very nice instrument, but the last time I checked even that wasn't widely available.
For things like articulation and tone variation, if the Clarimate were that advanced I think we'd have heard a lot more hype about those features, as they would be ground-breaking in the context.
FWIW classical violinists in my experience are universally disappointed in the sound and playing characteristics of electric violins, no matter how good the filters its put through in a DAW
Post Edited (2022-11-25 23:01)
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2022-11-26 22:47
The Clarimate absolutely has to impact the response and blowing resistance of your instrument. It won't be what your teacher taught you, and many clarinetists are neither flexible nor adaptive in this regard.
I have performed using a couple of microphone technologies, with mixed results. Pickups are very handy for windy outdoor venues, or when there is high ambient noise. On the other hand, you have to accommodate notes with all your fingers down being rather loud, and notes with all your fingers up being rather soft.
A mouthpiece and a barrel were sacrificed for my experiments, although they are both totally playable without connecting the electronics. If Buffet's offering does commit you to drilling, then it is ahead of the curve.
For my purposes, I needed a clean signal to process. Both technologies that I tried were great for this, although the barrel-mounted pickup was a later and more user-friendly technology. When faced with drilling a hole in a barrel, my tech pulled out a shoe-box of free barrels, and we found a plastic one that tuned very well on my R13. Insofar as my needs went, Igor says that the experiment was a success.
Using a pickup, processed sound, and a volume pedal, allows a very soft reed to allow a lot more flexibility, especially with pitch bends. But few people will be able to depart from habit. Some players I met tried my setup, and readily saw its advantages. But they also didn't like having electronics interfere with their lip/breath/ear feedback process, and I understand these concerns. They a lot more open-minded than a many folks, just for trying it. Maybe later they might find a use.
For a live-instrument sound, I far-and-away prefer using a moderately-priced external cardioid mike on a stand, such as a Shure Beta 58. I can work distance and presentation to the mike when needed, and nobody complains about how it sounds.
It should be assumed there are big disadvantages to practicing on a different acoustic setup than the one you will perform on. But still, if you need to do routine technique drills, a Clarimate might be the ticket.
We won't know how good this thing is until a number of people with varying needs have tried it. I assume there will be those who love it and those who hate it. I am excited to try it. News at 11.
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2022-11-29 03:14
Today was the official launch date, so here's the link to their 30-minute livestream:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoHPboiPdHw
Getting back into playing after 20 years.
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Ridenour Homage mouthpiece
Rovner Versa ligature
Vandoren V12 #3 - #3.5 reeds
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Author: smokindok
Date: 2022-11-29 05:53
Thanks for the link, David.
Pretty slick technology, for sure! I suspect it will certainly be a good tool for learning precise finger placement. Felix Peikli, a superb clarinetist, who I'm pretty sure has considerable experience with other EWIs, gives an impressive demonstration of the Clarimate. (16:19 and 24:20 in the recorded live stream.) At 16:19 in the video, is that the developer, Maxence Fulconis, working on the laptop, while Peikli is playing? Makes me wonder how much time was spent "training" the Clarimate to get to this level of performance capability.
Very telling that not a single one of the other Buffet artists in the video had the guts to include any audio of the output they were getting when they tried it.
Looking forward to getting "real world" evaluations from bboarders! Anyone place an order?
John (who already has a WX5 and believes one EWI is enough)
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Author: smokindok
Date: 2022-11-29 09:58
Can't find anything about how the device detects fingerings. Sensing air pressure change within the bore might be a possibility. I did run across this interesting reply, from Clarimate, to a FB post:
"a very great attribute of the ClariMate, is that although the unit is intended primarily as a easy to use and silent practice tool, it can absolutely be incorporated in a recording setting as a MIDI controller through your favorite DAW software! However, due to the technological design of the ClariMate, the unit is not compatible for use in a live performance setting with other acoustic instruments, as this may interfere with the note recognition system."
Hmmm...
John
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Author: SebastianB
Date: 2022-11-29 21:11
Hmm indeed. Can it be that the only explanation for this is that the sensing of fingering is some kind of acoustic measurement of the sound of air passing through the horn without a reed?
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2022-11-29 21:24
Perhaps this disclaimer goes without saying, but I haven't tried the Clarimate yet.
I suspect though that when/if I do, what I have to say below won't change:
The Clarimate strikes me as a
* well thought out first attempt into trying to digitally capture the nuance of clarinet play that
* has a niche market with only those who cannot practice the real thing for fear of disturbing others, but
* falls widely short of being a substitute for true clarinet practice.
I'm not against situations where technology and research advance our art.
I think that significant advances have been made, for example, in the area of synthetic reeds (much that I believe more is needed). But the fact that Buffet couldn't solicit a single one of its artists to rave about the device's merits, or offer a return policy, that it may very well speak to the idea that in its current embodiment, it's better described as a "better than not practicing" tool for the apartment/hotel dweller, or "acoustically frustrated" parent of a beginner, that in no way is a substitute for real play.
I would love to be proven wrong. Someday I hope technology will. Better still, I think it's fair that readers challenge me with a "so you do better" response, given the ease with which any one of us can be arm chair critics, but it's quite another feat to build a better mousetrap.
In the not too distant future my wife and I plan to sell the home we raised a family in and seek, with age, more communal living arrangements. Accordingly, clarinet practice that doesn't affect neighbors has been on my mind, as I research small sound proof booths and devices, like the Saxmute One https://youtu.be/pJYLukWhe4w?t=455 in its application for the clarinet.
I recently came across this DIY https://youtu.be/_iBdXdMDmIE and attempted to recreate it to see what I could learn. Version one of my attempts was hugely lacking but equally informative. When inspired to attempt version two I will likely incorporate a stand and/or neck brace for both sitting and standing play that insures that the most weight a player carries is just that of the clarinet--much that like the Saxmute One, I'd add the ability for the instrument to have its own weight barring system, likely via neck strap.
For time being at least, I think that devices that are large enough to encapsulate the instrument in ways that don't restrict the blowing experience, just the loudness of the sound, but small enough to not encase the player (i.e. a booth) may present better solutions.
I warmly welcome your input and thoughts here. 
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Author: Clarineat
Date: 2022-12-05 09:26
I don't know. People here who are worried about the "acoustic difference" with practicing with something like this vs. reality, etc. clearly don't understand how hard some people have it as far as finding time and space to practice. I have 2 kids and would LOVE to be able to practice in the evening again. Let alone 10 years ago when I lived in an apartment building with paper thin walls. Or when I was in university sharing a house with 5 people and could never practice at home. I don't think anyone would advocate exclusively practicing with such a device, but even if it did change some elements of performing it can only make one a more adaptable musician, really. Also, is it better NOT to practice if you don't have the ability to play at full volume in a concert hall? Seriously who has access to this at all times? Hardly even the greatest among us.
The USD capabilities are very interesting to me, especially for use with a looper pedal and software such as Logic. I can't wait to see what people do with this and am interested to learn more. Maybe even I'll find a way to use it in an interesting way, who knows. That is, if it actually works as advertised (which it may not?). Still struggling to spend the $400 USD on it. If I find a way to justify it and test it out, I'll report my thoughts.
I think that if you aren't in the target market or finding this interesting, it's maybe just not intended for you, and that's fine!
We'll have to see, I'm interested to see if any reviews come out soon.
Sean Perrin
Host of the Clarineat Podcast
Listen FREE at www.clarineat.com
hello@clarineat.com
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Author: SebastianB
Date: 2022-12-05 21:29
Speculation about what it might be is all well and good, but it really is thought-provoking to compare this rollout with the "digital saxophone" Yamaha put out a few years ago (YDS-150).
In other words, we can reasonably speculate about how relevant this will be to various people's needs as far as practicing, but the omissions in the rollout make room for reasonable doubts about how well the device does even the constrained and limited things that seem most probable.
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Author: donald
Date: 2022-12-07 14:51
Thank you Sean for stickin' up for the underprivelidged among us. You might be surprised to hear that I've spent many hours practising in 1) parked cars 2) the basement of a multistoried car park building 3) an underground walkway between two buildings in a bad part of town 4) park bench 5) bush track in a national park 6) building site behind local church. And not just once or twice, I've prepared concertos and recitals in these locations because I've lived in places where I couldn't practise.
So in other words, your comment was directed at someone who has spend most of the last 30 years of his life having to solve the problem of "where will I practise" while living as a professional musician. Thanks mate.
Let's get back to the original topic...
Here's what the "clarimate DOES NOT do for a player
- embouchure
- voicing (and therefore...)
- intonation (and...)
- timbral nuance
- articulation nuance
- finger control (Bonade legato fingers etc)
- reed selection/adjustment
- developing sound/projection
- breath support
In other words, all the most important things.
I'm sure I could think of some more short-comings, but I'm bored.
Post Edited (2022-12-08 11:08)
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2022-12-09 00:31
Has anyone seen or bought one yet? I would not consider buying this without someone who does not work for Buffet R and D reviewing it along with audio samples.
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Author: TheButler
Date: 2022-12-12 12:44
It's a very intriguing product, let's be honest. Especially the tone detection.
The product launch was really, really bad.
It did not show any audio of the product being played.
A few days later they released a half hour "live"stream with all but 40 seconds of demo of the onboard sound:
https://youtu.be/PoHPboiPdHw?t=978
To me this onboard sound synthesis is not pleasing, I don't think I could complete much of a practice session listening to that, similar quality to the EWI onboard clarinet sound.
The Midi demo in the same livestream is admittedly better sounding, but it's again a very strange choice, which does not show any breath control or articulation detection:
https://youtu.be/PoHPboiPdHw?t=1460
Also since it's Midi the playing could have been cleaned up afterwards (I think the input was at least quantized).
The way this product is marketed (digital mute, "Play anywhere, anytime") does not rhyme with how it was sparcely demoed after the launch (by a professional even). Also this was mentioned in the Facebook comments but I haven't seen it anywhere else:
"However, due to the technological design of the ClariMate, the unit is not compatible for use in a live performance setting with other acoustic instruments, as this may interfere with the note recognition system."
For anyone interested, this seems to be the archived website of the prototype that Buffet probably took over. The real website was still online recently but got taken down when the url was shared on Reddit.
http://web.archive.org/web/20221113185703/https://www.freedom-player.com/
Post Edited (2022-12-12 17:10)
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2022-12-12 17:36
Clarimate facts as-known (to me at this time):
- it completely mutes your natural sound, and regenerates pitch.
- it is not intended for live performance.
Questions:
- in live performances, what causes interference?
- can it be updated / re-flashed?
- is there any latency / delay in producing a sound?
- how long do the batteries last?
- if you use it whenever you practice, what will happen to muscle tone in your embouchure?
- does it sense Bb/A instrument, or is there a setting?
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2022-12-12 19:18
I can't help but believe that if this invention was all its makers made it out to be that Buffet would have given away a bunch to artist who would have performed on them for endorsement purposes.
I don't mean to disparage a product I haven't tried, nor criticize its makers for making an initial plunge into the "clarinet meets digital" space.
But I do suspect that history will look upon this device, for all its possible sophistication, as limited as the video game "Space Invaders" (which unlike the Clarimate, I predict, was widely successful) is seen in light of today's virtual reality gaming experience.
We shall see. I hope I'm wrong.
Sean, you're just considering buying this because your think it's "neat, mate"
(See what I did there: Clarineat, Clarimate.)
Actually I'd love to hear (of) your results with it.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2022-12-12 21:32
Might be good for working finger exercises, or by-ear/key familiarity exercises that would go along with improvisation. Can't see something like this as a substitute for live practice--but maybe as a supplement...
Allen Cole
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2023-04-23 01:30
Alistair Penman wrote a positive review in the last issue of "Clarinet & Saxophone".
He has also recorded a video on his YT channel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFOFgYSNM98
To me, this device is useful for people who want to create electronic music and prefer using the clarinet as an input method (to a keyboard or manual programming).
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Author: Clarineat
Date: 2023-05-16 07:04
Indeed that is why it's interesting to me. But the price and artificiality leads me towards just using an EWI in clarinet fingering mode. I don't have one. Maybe some day.
Sean Perrin
Host of the Clarineat Podcast
Listen FREE at www.clarineat.com
hello@clarineat.com
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Author: Ed
Date: 2023-07-20 04:38
I know these have been out for a while and Buffet was doing demos at the conference. Has anyone had opportunities to actually check this out?
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Author: jcm499
Date: 2023-07-20 16:16
Ed,
I have one, which I preordered as soon as it was available, so I have had it for some time.
It is a neat toy, but in my opinion it falls short of being an effective practice tool, which is how it was primarily marketed. This is because the tone, breath pressure, response, and embouchure are all markedly different when playing through the ClariMate than when playing acoustically. Though many of these parameters are tweakable, I believe they are inherently different enough that a practicer would be served at least as well by just practicing mentally.
Essentially, it turns the clarinet into an EWI, and that's where I think it has the most utility. Finally there is an EWI with true clarinet fingerings and key feel (because of course it is a clarinet). There are two very important caveats to this. First, although MIDI-out functionality for use with DAWs was promised, the ClariMate did not ship with this feature enabled. I have not updated the software or firmware in some months, so it's possible it has since been added (I would have expected to get email notifications for updates, but apparently not). Second, other notes played other instruments in the vicinity of the ClariMate seem to disturb ClariMate's note detection somehow, so even when MIDI output is available, it would be useful only in the studio, not in live performance.
An additional note: ClariMate's note detection was perfect on a Buffet E12 (Germany), but deeply flawed on a Selmer Centered Tone. Perhaps this is not so surprising. I haven't tried it on an Albert or German clarinet, but I don't think it would work with them.
Edit: It seems MID out is now enabled. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFOFgYSNM98
Post Edited (2023-07-20 16:27)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2023-07-20 16:59
Thanks for the feedback. When I initially saw these, I was unsure if it would be useful. In recent months I have given it some thought. In a school where I teach, it is difficult if not impossible to practice during my down time. Spending some time playing clarinet would be preferable to other options. While I did not expect that this could replace an acoustic clarinet, I was hoping that perhaps it would be useful enough, even if just running technique like scales, patterns, etc. I'll try to see if there have been any updates that may improve functionality and make it something for me to consider.
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Author: John Morat
Date: 2024-01-10 13:43
I just found examples of midi recordings with clarimate here:
ClariMate. and it was enough to purchase it. It seems like that the MIDI capabilities are already updated, I hope I will get it soon to test it out!
Post Edited (2024-01-10 13:47)
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Author: glenndickson
Date: 2024-01-16 04:27
I haven't tried it yet. If you aren't using it to practice silently, but rather for the midi conversion, it makes more sense to me to use a good pickup like a Rumberger and convert it to midi or run it through pedals like I do. That way you have the option of a more natural sound, no feedback, and the ability to alter the sound how you like it. A Rumberger is also cheaper than this, although if you start buying pedals, etc., it can get more expensive. There are also cheaper pickups you can get.
Glenn
glenndicksonmusic.com
Glenn Dickson
www.glenndicksonmusic.com
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The Clarinet Pages
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