 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: alanporter
Date: 2022-09-24 05:47
Do people really believe that different ligatures create different sounds ? All they do is hold the reed to the mouthpiece, which are the two things that create the sound. Is this not just a lot of nonsense ?
tiaroa@shaw.ca
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2022-09-24 06:37
I don't think so. I could tell a different resonance back when I played regularly. (Just picked up a new Ridenour clarinet last month to get back into it!)
I wish I could find the older Rovner Eddie Daniels II ligature. I REALLY liked that one back then! I have a Rovner Versa with the different plates, but I liked the little plastic ribs on the inside. I felt it made a difference.
This video was what it looked like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuRmAtgHtF0
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Author: johnwesley
Date: 2022-09-24 06:39
Wondering that myself, however I do have a few ligs that seem to limit reed vibration. I can definitely say that the vandoren leather lig is nice and provides a dark tone. The Optimum performs nicely, but I don't detect ant difference between the 3 plates. Inverted Bonade is very nice and probably my favorite of the three. Olegature is also a great lig and the only one of the above besides the leather that doesn't slip around on my crystal MPCs. Do any of the above provide a "better" sound? Probably not.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-09-24 06:49
So here's the deal. If you don't already have a really robust sound to begin with chances are you won't hear any differences and that's ok. The equipment issue is something that I have a lot of experience with over the years, mostly ligatures. If I don't already own it, I have something that is very close. Lately, I have have been schooled in yet another important aspect to what defines a good test for ligatures:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o68Iqf_1vDg
So, in addition to consistent pitch and consistent tone, one can look for consistent clarity of articulation (caused by the pitch of the initial transient) from note to note going through an articulated scale.
The more all these factors are the same throughout your horn, the smoother and richer your sound will be. So now I work on articulated pitches and ligatures.........keeps me off the streets.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: hans
Date: 2022-09-24 07:58
Attachment: Benny Goodman ligature.jpg (457k)
Alan,
Old pictures of some pretty good clarinet players, like Benny Goodman and Artie Shaw, show them using a metal ligature with two screws - the kind of ligature that clarinet manufacturers typically supply with their products; e.g., a photo of BG is attached.
It's interesting that both BG and AS wrote "Clarinet Method" books but apparently neither of them deemed ligatures to be important enough to include a discussion of them as a major factor in sound quality, ease of playing, etc.
My choice of ligature (for both clarinet and two of my 3 saxes) is the VD Optimum, simply because I find one screw slightly more convenient than two. It looks nice too.
Hans
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2022-09-24 08:38
hans,
Could it possibly be that BG and AS never mentioned the importance of ligatures because 70-80 years ago very few styles of ligatures were available?
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2022-09-24 08:39
I used the Goodman ligature (or a version of it-- had one bolt) for a while decades ago. Big bolt that would just slam the reed tight as a drum. Seemed the same as all the others I was experimenting with, including the string & wax thing. So as I've often said, I agree with the OP Alan Porter. There may be slight differences, but nothing that ever concerned me.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
Post Edited (2022-09-24 08:40)
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2022-09-24 09:50
Attachment: 01.jpg (264k)
Attachment: 02.jpg (80k)
As mentioned the Benny Goodman ligature has a single big screw. (see pictures)
But the platform that the screw pushes up is "floating."
The platform also is not flat, it is concave meaning that the rounded platform edges of it pushes up against the reed itself and not just a big flat curved plate.
The simple design allowing it to float to create even pressure against the reed front to rear. and side to side.
What I've found from research and testing over 10 years ago was that some simple ligs can pressure and pinch a reed from the edges more than simple support, and can actually cause a squeal that is hard to perceive. I found this out ironically playing for a retired clarinet player that used to play with Benny Goodman when he came to the Detroit area. He had a good ear for his age. I could not hear this squeal myself until I changed ligatures. I had changed clarinets, mpcs, reeds and finally ligatures trying to hear what he was hearing. Once I changed the lig I hear a better, more clear and full 3rd octave without that squeal that now comparatively I could hear.
I can't recall but he may have given me the lig in the pictures as he had boxes of ligatures. He led me to learn more about ligatures and to test how they pinch/support a reed by using a foam piece shaped like a reed.
==========
Stephen Sklar
My YouTube Channel of Clarinet Information
Post Edited (2022-09-24 10:23)
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Author: hans
Date: 2022-09-24 10:18
Dan,
Artie Shaw stopped playing 70 years ago but Benny played much longer, until his death in 1986.
If "better" ligatures could produce an objectively detectable improvement in clarinet performance, surely it would be in manufacturers' best interests to provide them.
Regards,
Hans
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Author: Hugues Fardao
Date: 2022-09-24 11:37
The only difference I felt (and other clarinet players and sax players friends of mine) was leather ligature VS. any other materials : the leather cuts the high frequencies.
I tested rubber band, shoelace, metal, plastic, cheap, expensive, very expensive, one screw, two screws... i felt the salme and my sound is what I produce. I use the Vandoren M/O because it's a one screw lightweight easy to use ligature, and it makes me more comfortable because I don't have to worry about it, but that's all.
More than the ligature itself it seems to me the ligature placement is important.
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Author: JTJC
Date: 2022-09-24 14:57
I've tended to think ligatures don't make a difference but I have changed ligature styles over time. I must have thought something was different or improved to make the change. In recent years I've used Rovner rubberised fabric ones.
After reading a recent BB thread and watching the Dale Fedel video Paul refers to my curiosity was aroused. I went back to my ligature collection and did Fedel-style tests. I was most curious about Fedel's experience, where he found adjacent notes had varying response depending on the ligature. I can't say I experienced that, but I certainly notice difference in responses in registers (not adjacent notes) with different ligatures. Somehow I'd not noticed that when testing ligatures in the past. My current Rovner came out worst in these tests and I found a Versa of Opimum better. Hard to choose between them, so a bit more testing to do.
The Optimum seemed better with plate with ridges parallel to the length of the reed, not the plate with four dots or ridges going across the reed, which seemed to leave uneven pressure marks on the bark (which surely can't be intended or desirable) . So, both the Versa (with flaps) and Optimum configurations grip the reed along its length, though with different spacings across the reed, with the Versa gripping closer to the edge.
One thing I did notice was the Versa and Optimum did add brightness even edge to my sound. I'm not sure I want that. There are also a slight difference in overall tone between the two. So, as with the other variable characteristics of the clarinet, mouthpieces, barrels, bells and reeds etc I'll have balance my final decision as to which ligature I go with for now.
I don't expect anyone else to agree with my findings. Nor do I expect anyone else to hear any difference. This is all about me and how I feel about any changes I perceive it makes to my playing.
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Author: clsbob
Date: 2022-09-25 07:27
Well you might think that ligatures do not do much, but if you ask the major symphony players they may say differently. If you are really trying to make a better sound you might also look at different platings. Gold is darker than silver. Even plated ligatures have different responses if you try them side by side. If you have not tried the ligatures coming from Japan (Woodstone, etc.) you might feel different about ligatures not enhancing your sound.
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Author: JTJC
Date: 2022-09-25 13:51
I'm sure some major symphony players (to quote) 'may' say differently. It seems major players in the public eye change their equipment, ligatures included, quite frequently. To point to particular players using a particular ligature doesn't really say much. What happened to to last ligature they were seeing playing? The new ligature may to them be better but can their public say they notice any significant difference? So long as the player is happy and they think the ligature is adding something that's great for them.
I can't speak for plating making a difference, side by side or otherwise. However, most of us probably play on mass produced ligatures. Whatever they are plated with I don't think the manufacturing tolerance they're made to is so high that you can't rule out individual difference being responsible for any differences experienced by players. I'd point to the issue I noted with the Opimum plate that left uneven pressure marks across the reed. I'm sure they're not all like that. After all, that plate is stamped metal, not some finely and precisely ground/machined component, matched to a metal band made with equal precision.
I have tried Silverstein. With that I found the metal wire setup was a bit wonky so, I felt, would exert uneven or asymmetrical pressure on the reed. This made it hard to determine whether any differences were due to those issues or the style/design/metal wire quality of the ligature. It seems to me that even expensive ligatures aren't made to particularly high tolerances.
If there was indeed one ligature style and plating that made so much difference to sound wouldn't we all be playing it by now? Yet we're not. All those pros referred to are all playing different ligatures, just like the rest of us.
Personally, I don't have an issue with my sound. Over many decades I've always had complementary comments from top pros and other wind players. I don't think a ligature will make all that much difference to me. I like to try them and I'll use whatever I feel is better, as will we all.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-09-25 15:28
Certainly a lot of very good points. There are bunch of symphony players that DON'T change their equipment (I think Drucker was one). After all why would you keep looking for your car keys if you'd already found them? I have to admit that I am actually quite jealous of the content. Although in over fifty years I have only just begun using only one mouthpiece for more than a year and I'm going on about four years now.......yeah me.
My more recent ligature adventure (not that I stopped for long) was an attempt to make Legere reeds sound as lively as possible. They have been, since the European Signature introduction, real contenders to cane. However, one would have to admit that they are not 100% there yet. After finding out that plastic and carbon fiber ligatures make a significant difference with the performance of the Legere reeds, I discovered that I may have left constancy of articulation from note to note behind......plastic and carbon fiber are more "brilliant" sounding but are not always even throughout the scale when performing staccato noted figures.
The bottom line though with ANY equipment upgrade, and no matter what level you play, is that you are striving to make what YOU DO easier. The idea that someone else will hear the difference is not even the point and it is counterproductive to the notion that equipment is important at all. Give students crappy horns, let 'em use shoe laces for ligatures........
now really
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: lydian
Date: 2022-09-26 03:12
alanporter wrote:
>Do people really believe that different ligatures create different sounds ? All they do is >hold the reed to the mouthpiece, which are the two things that create the sound. Is this >not just a lot of nonsense ?
There is no doubt that different ligatures create different sounds. Just compare a rubber band to a traditional ligature. You'll find the former more difficult to play and results in a dull sound. Good ligatures, ones which hold the reed tightly to the mouthpiece, produce good sounds. Bad ligatures, ones that don't hold the reed tightly by the likes of springs, leather, fabric, string, few points of contact, etc., degrade the sound in some way, usually by dampening certain frequencies and sapping energy from the vibrating reed.
I think the controversy is whether these negative effects are actually a good thing or worth paying vast amounts of money for. Personally, I'd much rather have a good ligature than a bad one. I can dampen various frequencies or create different sounds with my embouchure, thank you very much. I don't want or need any "help" from a bad ligature.
However, lots of players like these negative effects and consider them improvements. If you are such a player, I absolutely have no problem with you spending your money any way you wish. But if you are a beginner, I'd encourage you to develop the ability to change and control your sound with your embouchure and a traditional ligature rather than buying vast numbers of inferior, over-priced ligatures that degrade the sound in some way, depending on those external, and unpredictable factors.
Post Edited (2022-09-26 03:13)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2022-09-26 04:39
lydian wrote:
> ....\But if you are a beginner, I'd encourage you to
> develop the ability to change and control your sound with your
> embouchure and a traditional ligature...
It might be clearer for the present purpose if you would define a "traditional ligature."
Karl
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Author: donald
Date: 2022-09-26 08:58
Hank- that Ratterre ligature reminds me of something... I was 15 years old and the Heidelberg Chamber Orchestra came to town, it turned out that the clarinet player (who was soloing with the Mozart Quintet) needed somewhere to stay, so not only did I hear a German clarinet "close up/for real" for the first time, but I got to ask him a million questions....
Turned out, instead of using the traditional string ligature he had another solution.... He got a Luyben ligature and chopped off one end (the small end) and just used that as a "single ring" type ligature. Basically exactly like the Ratterre but out of plastic.
His name was Andreas Weiss, I think there's at least one recording of him still available out there but I haven't heard him in 35 years... but I REMEMBER him sounding very beautiful.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2022-09-26 20:45
Andraes Weiss performs a fantasy by Philippe Gaubert on www.pandora.com. The piece has a smooth almost Celtic feel to it which Weiss plays up very well.
Pomerico used to have a single band metal ligature called the Pomerico Light ligature. Same idea as the Ratteree and Weiss's truncated Luyben but rather prettily finished to look like jewelry. https://musiciansfriend.com/woodwinds/pomarico-light-clarinet-ligature
Post Edited (2022-09-26 20:47)
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Author: lydian
Date: 2022-09-27 03:17
@kdk
https://www.amazon.com/Selmer-1719-Nickel-Clarinet-Ligature/dp/B0022RQP1C
Not quite as traditional as the string used 200 years ago, but traditional for the past hundred years or so. String is still fine too, so long as you get it tight enough. Really anything from a pipe clamp to a shoelace would work fine. Point is, pick anything you want that holds the reed tightly and stick with it at least until you learn how to play.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2022-09-27 06:47
Clarinetists will perpetually reinvent the ligature no matter what people think of that. Some old idea like pressure plates or floating contacts will come to someone's attention, attract their fancy, and behold a "new" ligature is born. The Bonade model, with its two vertical metal strips in contact with the reed, for instance, has been reinvented in the Spriggs, Ishimori, Brancher, BG Tradition and Duo, one of the Vandoren Optimum's metal plates, and many other brands, each with a particular twist or innovation. One of the latest of these reinventions is from Sax Clinic in Macedonia. It was only a matter of time before someone would riff interestingly on the Silverstein multiple string ligature. Sax Clinic's versions certainly have visual appeal. If they sound as interesting as they look, they could be news. Even if they don't, some players may buy them for eye candy; they certainly photograph well. Have a look: https://saxclinic.com/b-clarinet/
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-09-27 21:34
lydian,
I would offer up one challenge. At the end of a playing session, just loosen your ligature one half turn and play. What does that sound like? Then try a full turn, and play a few notes. Lastly if it hasn't already happened loosen the ligature so that there is some audible creaking of the fibers being unbound, and play a few notes. Just be open to how the sound changes.
You can thank me later.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk
Date: 2022-09-27 21:39
Paul Aviles wrote:
> Lastly if it hasn't already happened loosen the
> ligature so that there is some audible creaking of the fibers
> being unbound, and play a few notes. Just be open to how the
> sound changes.
Paul, just how tight are you starting the ligature to begin with? I don't think I've ever heard this creaking of the fibers as I loosen a ligature.
Karl
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Author: hans
Date: 2022-09-27 22:17
Paul makes a good point, that tightening the screw(s) is potentially an important variable.
We should be using small torque wrenches to adjust our ligature screws to the right level of tightness, whatever that might be.
Hans
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2022-09-28 00:26
I’ve tired the sax clinic lig. It’s very good and not a rip off of Silverstein. No metal actually touches the mouthpiece. It behaves like a string ligature.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-09-28 00:52
Hey Peter,
Are they using the same "space age" cable material......no stretch at all......metal like results as opposed to string (blattschur).
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2022-09-28 01:05
Judging from the photos the Sax Clinic ligatures appear to have been intricately crafted. Well, the many ligatures that may have been inspired by or resemble the Bonade model are not rip offs either. Springer, BG, Brancher, Ishimori, one of the Momos, the removable vertical rib plate of the Vandoren Optimum--all take the Bonade idea down a different route and have their own response and tonal patterns. Do you know the difference between the Sax Clinic Sonus Divinus and their Tonus Mundi?
Post Edited (2022-09-28 01:33)
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2022-09-28 03:00
Around 40 yrs ago, I had a ligature which had replaceable fiber inserts which ran the horizontal length of the ligature over the reed. I don't remember the name of the ligature, however, I do remember how much fun it was to change the fiber inserts of different densities and listen to how it changed the sound of the tone.
Yes, it actually changed the sound of the tone.
Does anybody remember the name of that ligature?
I checked with WWBW and went through 8 pages of ligatures on the Weiner Music website. I couldn't find it.
The closest thing I could find on the Weiner site was the following:
https://store.weinermusic.com/collections/2731-bb-clarinet-caps-ligatures/products/vandoren-ligature-replacement-leather-plates-bb-clarinet-pp21
Anybody remember that ligature I had a long time ago?
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Author: Ed
Date: 2022-09-28 03:44
This comment was above
"One thing I did notice was the Versa and Optimum did add brightness even edge to my sound. "
I find it valuable to play in different rooms and in different settings as well as to record my playing. Sometimes I find that what I think I hear and feel is different than what is heard. I often find that some brightness actually helps the tone ring and project.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-09-28 07:27
I have four of the Silversteins, two A-frames and two T-frames. I think I spent more time with one of the T-Frame models (basic silver one). I never had much luck getting any differences of sound with the tuning bars. However, placing the bars closer to the top takes away some slack and can help if the ligature is a little big for your mouthpiece. I haven't tried the A-Frame without the rubber feet, but since my mouthpiece is quite narrow, that may make the A-Frames too big to work with the really thin Euro Cut Legere's that I use.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2022-09-28 07:50
Tonight, I decided to see if Tony P had ever addressed this issue before (I assumed he had, and I was interested in his take on things). So, I performed a search and included The Klarinet Mailing List Archives.
I smiled a lot while reading through those discussions.
Here we are, decades later, having the same discussions.
To me, so much of what we discuss here seems to be akin to vitamins and whether they generally work or not. "I swear they make me jump higher." or "Watch this video and you'll see the difference between his jumps when he takes different vitamins."
Another comparison might be the discussion of religion...because a lot of what we come to "believe" pertaining to the clarinet requires a certain amount of applied faith, belief, experience, and in some cases...even indoctrination.
I wonder what the chance is that what we're really discussing ends up being the placebo effect?
;^)>>>
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Author: JTJC
Date: 2022-09-28 13:14
Related to Fuzzy's point. One thing I often find with experimentation with ligatures and some other clarinet stuff, is repeatability, the standard scientific test/challenge to most claims. Having gone through a round of experiments with ligatures I don't always find exactly the same result next time round (maybe next day or few days later). Perhaps the main difference I noticed initially doesn’t seem to be there or is far less pronounced than before or becomes marginal. Of course, some things have changed - me, reed, weather, temperature, humidity etc. But shouldn't this equipment change provide a lasting, sustainable and noticeable benefit/difference ? It's this lack of consistency in outcomes, which could be down to me, that make me sceptical of the real benefits of changes to some equipment. Or is it that next time round I'm less susceptible to the placebo effect?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-09-28 16:32
Besides the Fedele video, "Testing a Metric Ton of Ligatures" where at least we find some testing methodology beyond "hey, I really like this," I play on Legere Euro Cut reeds. There is plenty of constancy there. They are plastic. There are no changes in weather, humidity, or even reed.......from hour to hour or day to day within a few months that is.
Bottom line though is that equipment is only meant to get THE BEST OF YOU (by that I mean allow you to get the results you want, as easy as possible). So any double blind, control group, my friend will put this on while I wear a blindfold test is NOT THE POINT.
..............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2022-09-28 19:57)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-09-28 23:25
Dale Fedele is an extraordinarily talented clarinetist and pedagog. His teacher Donald Montanaro of the Philadelphia Orchestra was as well. Dale just happens to have a lot of ligatures.......maybe more than I do.
Here is better video to help those who are not gifted with a wonderful sound:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYBzMOm7EJQ
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2022-09-29 02:51
Fedele plays notes with the mouthpiece turned so the reed is against his upper lip. He doesn't say that for the first decades of the clarinet as a new invention, most players probably played that way. The clarinet was developed from the chalumeau in the 1690s and at least till the early 1800's the old reed up embouchure was the standard. Virtuoso players like Heinrich and Carl Baermann did not establish the reed down position (that we take for granted as mainstream and normative) until well into the 19th century. What is most remarkable to modern ears is that Fedele, having practiced some of the Montanaro exercises, makes the reed up position sound sure and natural--not wild and uncontrolled as some would expect. He's teaching a "don't pinch" lesson, not a history lesson but I heard recently from some French clarinetists that players like Philippe Cuper believe the Paris Conservatory professor Prosper Mimart (who premiered the Debussy Rhapsody) was still playing with the reed against the upper lip as late as 1911. Mimart's old recording of Schubert's Shepherd on the Rock is sometimes discussed as proof that some early French players used vibrato. But it is even more remarkable if Mimart is playing throughout with the reed up. Even as a brief exercise, experimenting with this position can build sensitivity to what the lip is doing and how much or how little pressure is needed throughout to musically render the phrases. This little unintended glimpse into clarinet history opens up the possibility that some reed-up players, like Cavallini, for example, might have had more, not less lip flexibility than most reed-down players.
Post Edited (2022-09-29 02:54)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-09-29 03:36
For me, the message there is that we here in the US have become embouchure obsessed and the answer to good sound is in the use of air FAR more than any intricate, or God forbid, stressful embouchure technique.
The title of that video really should be, HOW TO GET A GREAT SOUND ON CLARINET.
I can see though why Dale Fedele is particularly incensed by all the standard misinformation that can lead us down a path of embouchure obsession and biting. I freely admit more than a decade of wasted effort trying to "perfect" an embouchure that began in college.
oh well
............Paul Aviles
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Author: super20dan
Date: 2022-10-03 17:28
well i broke down and ordered a 3d printed plastic bass clarinet lig and will report to you paul after it arrives. since i plan to play only legere reeds i want max results.i returned to my rovner after trying a slew of metal ligs and just wasnt getting the response i wanted . i tried the plastic ligs on my Bb clarinet w/ legere and was impressed. synce no one makes a plastic bass lig currently besides the 3d printed - i am left with no choice .pereira its is
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-10-03 19:30
Please let us know your results. I think you’ll really like the sound.
……..Paul Aviles
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Author: anonrob
Date: 2022-10-04 01:43
I have way too many ligatures but have stopped swapping, at least on Bb. I was playing different ligatures in the pit on a show and a well-respected colleague and friend said "that one sounds the best." That one is now the one I play.
Your milage may vary
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Author: graham
Date: 2022-10-04 23:15
Ligatures make a significant difference, but not necessarily for the better the more they cost. But a ligature’s effect is very mouthpiece, reed, and player dependent. Goodman chose his kit to work together. So did Cahuzac. They can’t be considered in isolation. But the differences are pretty clear.
graham
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Author: Hardlec
Date: 2022-10-05 00:06
It is a different thing for each player.
I think my Rovner is magical.
For me, it is.
For you? maybe not so much.
The music is in you, and radiates out through your lungs and fingers. The rest is up to you.
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Author: super20dan
Date: 2022-10-07 02:28
the periera arrived and first play test is extremly positive!. great response and mutes the sound less than my rovner. the way it grips the reed is unusual, its cradles it rather than wrapping around the reed body against the mpc table. take a look at rovners vangough lig and see whit i mean. playing a concert sat and will report further.the price is low enough it affordable to experiment with. i got stealth black color. comes with a very nice fitting 3d printed cap . so far 40$ with shipping is money well spent. playtested on my rehersal horn -a bundy bass with vintage woodind steel ebonite mpc and legere euro 2.5 reed. uber rare bay neck made for a bundy!
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Author: super20dan
Date: 2022-10-07 04:19
a beater you dont mind getting messed up like getting knocked off its stand in a crowded venue or stage. a bundy is the perfect choice .
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Author: super20dan
Date: 2022-10-09 05:25
played a concert today on the bass with the periera .its the most friendly lig i have tried with the legere reeds. the whole mpc vibrates and you can feel it. very responsive. articulation is good also. this might not be the best lig for saxes as the lig may slip if tuned . for bass and perhaps Bb clarinet this wont be an issue . so far sax ligs are not offered on the website
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Author: super20dan
Date: 2022-10-15 16:36
so impressed with this lig that i ordered one for the alto clarinet also
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The Clarinet Pages
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