 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-08-10 18:15
Hi,
I wondered if I could start this new thread to show Paul Aviles my experiments on different ligatures and their effects on crossing the break legato when playing Georgie by Emma Johnson?
My teacher is very keen that I learn to cross the break in this piece with no audible silence at all between the notes and I am getting there, but have not actually got there yet.
I did some experiments and I would be really interested to hear Paul's thought on how I understand the technical effect of the ligature on the whole set up.
Thanks!
Jennifer
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-08-10 18:22
Attachment: Brancher edit.mp3 (112k)
Attachment: String edit.mp3 (115k)
Attachment: Georgie by Emma Johnson snippet.png (18k)
I just did this experiment comparing a Brancher silver wire ligature with my bit of string ligature.
I tried to keep all other variables completely the same between the two experiments.
The Brancher had a tiny bit of electrician's tape attached to the inside of the bit where the screw is, so it didn't slide. This worked very well actually, and made it very easy to fix on.
I recorded audio on my Canon Powershot 210 IS, loaded it into Window Movie Maker, and saved out the mp3.
I then loaded the mp3 into Adobe Creative Suite CS Soundbooth, and looked at the picture of the sound (not sure what that's called).
I then took screenshots of the important bit of the sound, and put the two together in one image for comparison.
I also saved out just the key part of the tune as an MP3 to upload here.
As far as I can tell, they are identical between the two ligatures, which I thought was interesting.
I get the feeling that I need to blow harder and loosen my embouchure, to lose the little bit of silence as I cross the break, and that maybe the ligature in this case makes no difference.
I'm not sure though, as I've never actually got it to work.
This is a bit of a non-question I suppose, but do you think it's interesting that they are so extremely similar when engineering-wise, they are so different?
I thought that scientifically speaking, it was a nice result.
Adult learner, Grade 3
Equipment: Yamaha Custom CX Bb, Fobes 10K CF mp,
Legere Bb clarinet European Cut #2.5, Vandoren Optimum German Lig.
Post Edited (2022-08-10 18:25)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-08-10 20:58
I just tried this test again a few hours later to see if it is the same.
It was, but I think that what I need to do to cross the break right, is maybe to put all my fingers down at exactly the same time. I think if one lags behind then the column of air doesn't jump fast enough.
It's easier to do this now that I have had my keys extended and can use right hand C5.
I also tested the two ligature for niceness of sound.
My husband and son prefer the deep notes on the string, and I prefer the deep notes on the Brancher. We all three have this prefence because we thought the sound was warmer and fuller. None of us is convinced that we could tell them apart in a blind trial.
In the altissimo, the notes are very unreliable on string and frequently don't sound at all, whereas they always sound first time and play clearly on the Brancher. I do normally play altissimo on string, so I think it must just be easier on the Brancher.
Here is a recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0JdVX3wkdA
I also like the Brancher because it is quicker to put on than the string. Having said that, the electricians tape on the ligature is essential to prevent slipping. The instrument wouldn't work at all if the bit of electricians tape fell off. (Eeek!)
Adult learner, Grade 3
Equipment: Yamaha Custom CX Bb, Fobes 10K CF mp,
Legere Bb clarinet European Cut #2.5, Vandoren Optimum German Lig.
Post Edited (2022-08-10 21:07)
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2022-08-10 21:18
Jen,
You might as well put the cart before the horse, as the French say, and see how far the cart can pull the animal. The ligature cannot pull you over the break; your fingers and your air stream do that. It is an act of coordination that, once mastered, can be done on ANY and EVERY well-fitted ligature. Once you've got the knack of working digits and air together in seamless motion, you can pick up any ligature on Fedele's table and get right over the break ascending, descending, and zigzag with only miniscule differences in speed, connection, and evenness. Whether you are playing the Flight of the Bumblebee or a slow chorale using a Scotch tape ligature, an O ring, or a shoestring, you will be able to transfer the technique to the Brancher or other ligatures with little loss or gain in overall response. Some ligatures may for very subtle reasons seem more over-the-break friendly but the difference between them and the others in that regard will be quite small. Some ligatures may sound smoother and more liquid; others a bit more aggressive and jagged, but all will get over the break quite well when driven by the right finger/air action.
Ligatures aside, there is one mechanical factor that can greatly hinder or improve crossing the break, and that is the adjustment of the clarinet itself. Pads need to fit well and tightly seal when shut, and springs need to be regulated to have just the right amount of tension to open easily and to quickly close keys that have been released. Key height adjusted to the player's hands is also important. A badly adjusted clarinet can impede even the best of players and a well-adjusted one can greatly ease the task of break crossing for players of all different levels. The register key vent also needs to be cleaned and kept free of any debris that might delay response. A clarinet kept in tip-top shape is a boon to all who want to master crossing the break. It's just as important as finger coordination and maintaining a steady air stream, and more important than choice of a ligature.
Post Edited (2022-08-13 20:23)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-08-10 22:16
Seabreeze,
If you do not feel that ligatures make a contribution, please can you step away from this thread, and let me enjoy finding that out for myself, with any others who might like to enjoy doing the experiments with me?
Experimentation, well done, is part of a solid learning experience, and I don't see why we new folks shouldn't have that experience and discussion, just because you have already done it. Maybe some other learners might like to join me?
Also, if you read my posts above (at all?), I have worked out that my fingers are not landing all at once, and that was where the break problem was coming from.
You didn't need 250 words to make a point that I had already found out for myself.
Thanks.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-08-10 23:09
Thank you, I really appreciate that. I am still delighted by your company btw. But maybe for this topic, we'd better be on different threads. :-)
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Author: lydian
Date: 2022-08-11 00:32
This guy crosses the break seamlessly on everything from a Vandoren ligature to a rubber band. He did all the experiments so you don't have to. Result: if you can't cross the break, a different ligature ain't gonna help.
https://youtu.be/6ghMCiV8hTg
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-08-11 04:19
Sorry I was off collecting a wounded clarinet from a city far away.
First I want to say there has been some really good progress on your sound since the days of getting your mic and camera choices set.
So the results you got from the string vs the Brancher in the altissimo was quite revealing. Of course its hard to know exactly WHY you got those results, it seems to me that you need to use the Brancher for its ability to give you sure footed notes.
For me I found that tying a reed on (blattschnur) gave me a softer, sound with smoother transitions from note to note, particularly wider skips between adjacent notes. I was enamored with the Berlin Philharmonic when a high school student (who wasn't?) and actually forced most of the clarinet players in our concert band to use blattschnur for one of our bi-annual concerts (I tied them on for everyone.....some revolted and went back to their trusty crap ligatures). I was disappointed to find that there was NO improvement in the sound of our clarinet section despite the Teutonic upgrade! So there is something in what seabreeze is saying I'm afraid.
As for the "bump" to the clarion, there IS more air pressure that you exert for the altissimo (and perhaps a little more energy in the embouchure but both become unconscious actions with time and ability). I try to compare that with playing the recorder with students.
Finally, I failed to point out the contrast between the note graphics generated by Melodyne and your standard waveform (amplitude and frequency over time). I'm not sure that waveforms will show anything valuable per se. Melodyne is rather sophisticated in that everything displayed can be manipulated to the nth degree (pitch, length of note, intensity, vibrato, even overtones!).
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-08-11 05:44
Hey, I thought of an exercise that may help ease the differences of the chalumeau and clarion registers:
Start an F (top line of staff) with a "huff," no tongue (I'll explain in a second). Now, with the F sounding, take your thumb off the register key but do what you need to do to hold that F. It shouldn't take much effort to get that to hold fine in a few goes. Once you can get the F to stay, re-start the note with another "huff" (no tongue). Once you have that solid enough then you "huff" the Bb a twelfth down (usual note you get with that fingering and no register key). The final step is to be able to play those notes one after the other ("huffing" the start) without the register key of course. Ok, the reason you start the notes WITHOUT the tongue is that it makes it easier to start the higher notes when not using the register key. You should be able to play (stating the chalumeau notes) Bb, up through throat F (and associated high C) pretty easily........once you get the feel (the low E through A are a bit more challenging). Getting this to work with some ease is a great exercise for freeing up any problems making the leap into the clarion WITH the register key.
If you are attentive to pitch, you'll also notice how the notes above the F (top line of staff) are progressively more dependent on the register key to bring the pitch up to where it needs to be.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-08-11 09:19
Hi Paul,
Thanks so much for reading all that I wrote, and for that really helpful feedback.
I'll put that on my list of things to work on.
Best wishes,
Jennifer
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Author: ebonite
Date: 2022-08-11 11:50
One thing to look out for: some ligatures have an uneven grip on the reed --- e.g. they clamp the reed more tightly on one side than the other. If that affects the seal of the reed on the table, then it could make it harder to cross the break. I have sometimes found this problem with metal ligatures, especially the cheap ones that are packaged with new mouthpieces or instruments.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-08-11 16:35
Hi Ebonite,
Thank you very much for explaining that. I've realised that I have a very hard time getting some ligature positioned correctly, and especially those with two screws, where I have no idea whether one or other of the screws is far too loose or two tight.
I think this is probably why I get on so well with the Rovner Dark and the string options, as they are quite easy to put on right, and hard to put on wrong, if you see what I mean. In that respect the Brancher is the same, because it has one screw.
I wonder if maybe what the world needs is an online guide on how actually put ligatures on right. LOL!
Best wishes,
Jennifer
Adult learner, Grade 3
Equipment: Yamaha Custom CX Bb, Fobes 10K CF mp,
Legere Bb clarinet European Cut #2.5, Vandoren Optimum German Lig.
Post Edited (2022-08-11 17:41)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2022-08-11 20:33
SunnyDaze wrote:
> I wonder if maybe what the world needs is an online guide on
> how actually put ligatures on right. LOL!
Jen, the basics are intuitive. The reed needs to be straight and the ligature needs to hold still as you play. When I studied with a few major teachers in the Philadelphia area, the instruction that was given was basically, experiment and do whatever gives the best result. Some mouthpieces interact differently than others with different ligatures and, indeed, different reeds. Many mouthpieces have a ligature line, where you're ostensibly supposed to line up the top of the ligature. But sometimes, with some reeds and some blowing styles, a lower placement works better. I just added a rubber mouthpiece patch to the back of a mouthpiece I wanted to try out because the ligature I normally use was fully tightened but still loose around the reed and the response seemed unreliable. The mouthpiece is narrower than others and the ligature is too large without help. With the patch adding extra circumference, the ligature works perfectly well and the response issue disappeared.
The point is, there is no single answer to "best" ligature or anything else for beginners, novices, intermediate players or advanced players. There is comfort and there is struggle, and to make any choices at all you need to know the difference. You may very well find that a specific ligature or a specific style of ligature makes you more comfortable and playing easier, and if that's the case, you should choose that one. Efforts to find universal answers to the question, what's *best,* are not likely to be productive. There are very few products that are on the market that don't make *someone* more comfortable as they play. If no one liked a product, it would cease to be produced.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-08-11 20:51
But there are some practical starting points. Firstly the reed should be centered as much as possible both at the top and the butt. Adjustments can be made to aide a reed imbalance on the fly but center is paramount to start. Then, if you have a two screw ligature you may want to tighten the lower screw first. Usually but not always the reed has more life tightened (not overly so) “bottom heavy.”
Finally the typically best response comes from securing the ligature as loose as possible. And I don’t mean so you can kinda move the reed with your fingers but rather just enough so the reed doesn’t fall on the floor.
………….Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2022-08-11 21:46)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-08-11 21:24
Hi Karl,
Thanks, yes, that's makes a great deal of sense to me.
It seems like I need to learn a whole bunch of physics. I may need a hard hat for that.
Jennifer
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Author: kdk
Date: 2022-08-12 00:21
Paul Aviles wrote:
> But there are some practical starting points. Firstly the reed
> should be centered as much as possible both at the top and the
> butt.
Yes.
> Then, if you have a two
> screw ligature you may want to tighten the lower screw first.
Or not. I've known players who barely touched the bottom screw and tightened the top. FWIW, Gigliotti recommended tightening the top more *if it helped.* I'm sure there are also very skilled players who do as you recommend. If tightening the lower screw more than the upper gives your reeds, or even the one you're using today, a more reliable response, do it. It isn't a rule.
> Finally the typically best response comes from securing the
> ligature as loose as possible.
Unless it *feels better* tightened more. Mouthpiece tables differ, and reeds are variable (unless you use synthetics). I know one very good player who had a short dowel put through the single thumb screw on an inverted ligature (I think maybe a Rovner Versa) for leverage, because she couldn't finger-turn the screw tight enough for a comfortable response.
Chacun à son gout.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-08-12 03:28
Gosh, so it really is down to trying and finding out what works then. It's good to know that it's worth doing all these tests, and also while keeping a healthy level of skepticism about whether it is the ligature at all. Complicated!
Thank you very much to both of you for explaining. :-)
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Author: lydian
Date: 2022-08-12 07:46
What works is a simple 2 screw metal ligature or a shoestring or a luggage tag or a rubber band or dental floss or a hose clamp or anything else that can hold the reed tightly against the mouthpiece. Since the butt end of the reed doesn't vibrate, it doesn't matter what you use so long as it's a tight fit. No tests required. Isaac Newton and millions of clarinet (and saxophone) players have already proven it. Your time would be better spent practicing than doing pointless "science" experiments.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-08-12 09:03
Lydian,
It's really very clearly not true for me. Some ligatures just don't work well for me.
I would really be glad to understand why.
Jen
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-08-12 09:51
I'm finding it really bizarre that on this one topic, many community members feel they legitimately bully a learner into silence, without helping the person to find real understanding of what their difficulty it.
I'm not easily bullied, but I really find it quite concerning, because learners ought to be able to ask questions.
I would have no hesitation in trying to give a reasoned well thought out response to a question like this, from a learner. Just telling people that they are wrong to ask, seems silly to me.
Presumably if more experienced players are bored of frustrated by the topic, they could just not read the thread.
Adult learner, Grade 3
Equipment: Yamaha Custom CX Bb, Fobes 10K CF mp,
Legere Bb clarinet European Cut #2.5, Vandoren Optimum German Lig.
Post Edited (2022-08-12 12:47)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-08-12 13:39
That sort of behavior is not at all uncommon on the internet in general. We are pretty fortunate that it is at minimum here, though cannot be fully avoided.
We can't take it personally.......it's just part of life online.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: lydian
Date: 2022-08-12 17:00
I’ll say it again. Get a ligature that holds the reed tightly against the mouthpiece. One that doesn’t do that isn’t going to work. One such ligature is the one that came with your mouthpiece. It works for millions of clarinet students. So stick with that one and experiment with how far down you put it and how much you tighten it. Better yet, an in person teacher can get it sorted out in a few minutes.
I’m not bullying you. Just trying to get the point across that nearly any ligature will work when used properly. You just have to learn how to do that. If YouTube videos and experimentation can’t help you, then in person instruction is the only other option. Buying a dozen different ligatures is not the right solution. There is no way we can diagnose your issue without seeing/hearing it.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-08-12 17:42
Hi Paul,
Yes I know what you mean. The other forum I go to is Mumsnet in the UK which is for women with children. It's staggeringly aggressive and confrontational, and I absolutely love how calm and kind the BBoard is by comparison.
Then you very much for chatting so kindly to me about my puzzles here. I'm extremely grateful to you.
Every time you and Karl explain something to me I keep thinking "oh yes that makes perfect sense. Why didn't I see that?" and I feel as though I've been driving with box on my head for 4 years and you just took it off for me. :-)
Jennifer
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-08-12 18:39
Hi Lydian,
I started this thread specifically to discuss the technical aspects of ligatures, after we got drummed off two other threads by people who weren't happy to discuss that.
I understand the point that you want to make, but this thread was created specifically to have a safe space where we could get on and enjoy discussing ligatures, free from the company of people who don't want to do it.
If you don't want to discuss ligatures, could you possibly just leave us to enjoy ourselves, and potter off and join some of the other threads?
Jen
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Author: MarkS
Date: 2022-08-12 19:14
Hi Jen,
Going smoothly over the break, either staccato or legato, is challenging. Although choice of equipment can make it easier or more difficult, my experience is that the root cause of this kind of issue is most likely one of air support. For me, choice of ligature has some effect on tone and projection, but not on much else. I also think it is nearly impossible to assess "quality" of ligature in a scientific way. For example, I play on synthetic reeds, and have tried using a plastic ligature (Luyben) as recommended by some on this Board, but a find that I get better results using a Silverstein.
A problem that initially seems to be one of equipment, may turn out to be mostly an issue of technque. When I bought an A-clarinet a few years ago, I immediately noticed a "grunting" sound when I articulated in the high clarion. For a long time I assumed this was a problem with the clarinet, since I had not noticed it when I played on my B-flat. I had the register tube changed, and the tone holes adjusted. That helped, but did not totally eliminate the issue. After considerable frustration, and even thinking about looking for another brand of A-clarinet, I realized that the root issue had to do with inadequate air support. I have pretty much resolved the issue, but when I practice articulation, I usually do that on the A-clarinet, since it is less forgiving and will make it obvious if I start to relapse. The air support issue was always there, but was mostly masked by the B-flat clarinet.
There is a Youtube channel that has many short videos that you might find interesting and useful--including quite a few about articulation and going over the break staccato or legato. It is called "Cally's Clarinet." Each video includes a short etude related to the topic. Also, Cally demonstrates each of them. Here are links to a few relevant videos:
"Articulation over the Break" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpZ_ff_373U
"Troubleshooting Notes that won't Speak" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wysRam6XOw
"Articulation Etude" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYSZ4StvN4o
Mark
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-08-12 19:30
Hi Mark,
Thank you very much for explaining that and giving me the link to the video.
The air support idea makes a huge amount of sense, because that is my weakest area, and I actually took up the clarinet in order to improve it. I'm hilariously quietly spoken in real life, and a respiratory physiologist actually said that playing the clarinet might sort me out.
I had a funny thought as well about ligatures. Maybe I could just enjoy playing a different one each day for fun? Maybe the slight differences would shake my ingrained habits out, and force me to develop the strong air support that would push past the equipment differences? It might be a bit like learning to drive on different road surfaces, like gravel, sand, concrete and tarmac, so as to become really confident at handling anything.
-----------
Hi Lydian,
Thank for taking that so kindly, and I hope I can meet you on another thread sometime. :-)
Best wishes,
Jennifer
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-08-12 20:26
I think that's what I was doing less consciously over the years, that is just using ligatures as a way to reimagine a small portion of my playing to keep myself more engaged. There was a video of Ricardo Morales showing what he carried in his clarinet case and one part of that was the small collection of various ligatures. He (as I suspect many performing clarinetist do) expressed that he used certain ligatures to achieve certain sounds for specific composers' works. For me it was never that but rather my prevailing mood or just where I wanted my sound to be at the moment.
I did an evening of going back over a slew of key ligatures in the manner prescribed by Dale Fedele in his video. The first thing that struck me was that clarion F and D seemed duller to me no matter what........perhaps I needed to look for "ping" while choosing my clarinets! Of course at some point I hit a handful of ligatures that made most clarion notes sound even in response and pretty decent. I now fully realize that looking for this evenness from note to note was the point of the video, not the specific gear (he pretty much said that in his own way at the outset). So I would not even wish to list which ones worked for me and my Legere except for one ironic result. In Dale's video he could only take the briefest moment to play an example on the Rovner Eddie Daniels/Versa. That was oddly enough one that worked quite well for me with the flaps OVER the metal insert.
But we all must in the end find our own solutions.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-08-12 20:26
Hi,
Hank just wrote to say that maybe I am talking a bit too much and driving conflict in an area that is clearly sensitive. (Very fair point - I think maybe I was reading the room all wrong. Sorry about that.)
He said that if I am really finding myself in so much agreement with Paul it would be a good idea that I should get in touch directly.
Paul - I wondered if that would be okay with you? I always worry about contacting people offlist in case I would be making a nuisance of myself.
I actually was really wondering if you would be willing to give me paid lessons over zoom or something, as I really seem to be in great need of technical help. You are so kind, and seem to understand my situation so well. Would it be okay if I get in touch directly to ask about that?
Thanks!
Jennifer
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-08-12 21:44
Sure, no problem…. my email should be posted.
I’m not a big believer in getting much out of sound through electronic means but I’d entertain giving it a try.
………… Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk
Date: 2022-08-13 17:08
SunnyDaze wrote:
> ... just wrote to say that maybe I am talking a bit too much
> and driving conflict in an area that is clearly sensitive.
> (Very fair point - I think maybe I was reading the room all
> wrong. Sorry about that.)
>
> He said that if I am really finding myself in so much agreement
> with Paul it would be a good idea that I should get in touch
> directly.
It's always worth keeping in mind that participants in a BBoard like this one always have a choice to read or not read any specific thread. If others want to follow your conversation with Paul, or drop a comment in, they can do that. If they aren't interested, they don't need to click on the topic. Anyone can start a new thread about something that interests them.
Karl
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