 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: kerryklari
Date: 2022-07-19 14:00
I have just recently seen (not sure which forum) a post saying it's best to keep about 5 Légère reeds going in rotation, and another saying that the player got an entire summer out of a single Légère reed. I think people tend to keep a reasonable (whatever that means!) number of cane reeds in circulation, but I have no idea what constitutes good practice with synthetics. I currently have 2 Légères and alternate them, but would it be better to have more? Or just keep playing one till it dies, and simply keep a spare one for that moment?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-07-19 14:33
My rationale for having "a number" of Legere going at one time is based on common sense. Since plastic becomes more malleable when heated, it is only reasonable to assume that the longer it remains in our mouth, the warmer the material becomes. There is no way to avoid a modicum of pressure to control the reed's vibrations (that's just part of the drill), so any time we are playing, we are reshaping the reed closer to the mouthpiece (ANY reed, cane or otherwise) and making the effective tip opening closer. Sounds like we are always doomed?
This is part of the process of finding the right reed strength for ourselves and our chosen mouthpiece.
Additionally, I take a reed that has given a full day (and I mean an entire day) of loyal service time to straighten out (best it can) in a reed guard that encourages a flat tip:
https://store.weinermusic.com/products/rico-reed-guard-iv-bb-clarinetalto-saxophone
Legere tells us to use their reed coffins........ I don't.
Then, the number of your rotation merely represents how many days you want to allow you reeds to rest. Your choice.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2022-07-20 00:45
I like to keep three to use on rotation, although chances are I'll probably use one of them more than the others as I usually forget which one I last used, even though I've numbered them.
I've been using Vandoren reedguards to store them when not in use as they take up less room than the relatively large cases they come in.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: donald
Date: 2022-07-20 03:05
Paul, does your mouth keep on getting hotter and hotter? If so you are a medical marvel, i hope you donate your mouth to science when you leave us. What is more likely is that the reeds heat up to a certain point and remain close to that temperature.
Of course, each time you take the mouthpiece out of your mouth they will cool down a bit, you could blow on them a bit, or dip them in cold water when you get a bars rest....
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-07-20 03:21
So...... I think what I said makes sense. If you play a few bars, the mouthpiece/reed only is in your mouth for a few seconds, not long enough to get close to 98.7 degrees Fahrenheit. The longer you play the closer the mouthpiece/reed gets to your core temperature.
Now I'm the one that has a broken arm and suffer associated pain and lack of patience.......
don't push me Donald
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2022-07-20 16:44
I usually carry 4 close to the strength I like. I do not really rotate them. I micro grade them with +/- codes and choose a different one when I feel the need to go harder/softer. Sometimes I start with a stiffer one since they feel softer after 20 minutes of playing or so.
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-07-20 18:01
I wonder if there is any data on how much more flexible they get at different temperatures?
I know that my own temperature potters around between about 35.5 (When I feel a bit chilly) and 37.5 (when I feel a bit warm after a lot of activity). It would be interesting to know how much variability that introduced into the response of the reed.
(Just realising I should have thought of that yesterday when it was 40 degrees C outside. It would have been the ideal time to test it.)
Adult learner, Grade 3
Equipment: Yamaha Custom CX Bb, Fobes 10K CF mp,
Legere Bb clarinet European Cut #2.5, Vandoren Optimum German Lig.
Post Edited (2022-07-20 18:03)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2022-07-20 18:41
Legeres hold up better over long periods of playing much better than Bari plastic reeds which definitely soften up and tend to go sharp.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-07-20 20:20
Since we usually play at normal room temperature conditions, I don't believe there is much to be concerned with as far as ambient temperature is concerned. However, I had retired before the transition to Legere so I cannot address the more extreme temperatures in which I used to play.
There was once posted advice about bringing the effective strength of Legere down a notch by doing a quick dip in boiling water. The concept sounds valid but I never tried it and quite frankly don't recommend it. Just throwing that out there as a teperature vs Legere anecdote.
As far as when a Legere has reached the end of its useful life, they become less "brilliant" sounding and the top notes of the altissimo become difficult if not impossible to play. There is no visible physical wear and the rest of the range still plays remarkably well.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-07-20 20:59
Hi Paul,
That's really good to know, thanks. The business about dipping in boiling water makes a lot of sense to me because I found once that toothbrush bristles become much much softer if I wash them in boiling water.
Jen
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2022-08-04 03:29
I rotate through two at a time. And I have extras in boxes ready to unwrap. I had to take one out the other day as my reed got bent and I needed to replace one of the two.
I also spoke to someone (a PHENOMINAL classical sax player) who said that (and it makes sense) that even among LEGERE reeds, there are slight differences. So you can open up 4 legere reeds of the same type and strength, and you might notice one (or some) play better than the others. His philosophy was to buy maybe 6 at a time, pick the best four, and rotate through those. If the other two were ALSO good, he'd keep them and have them at home in case one of the other four broke, or felt like it was just getting too hard to play well. If the other 2 were NOT good, he'd toss them.
In his reed case, he rotated through four. His newest one was about 4 months old at the time, and his oldest one was 16 months old, with little 'checks' in the reed, a nick or two at the butt, but he still liked how it played, so he still played it.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2022-08-04 04:16
Paul, you spoke above about Legere "reed coffins:" which I am (maybe incorrectly) assuming to mean reed holders made by Legere.
Could you elaborate on what you meant by this as I can't seem to find a reed holder made by Legere.
Maybe I misunderstood what you meant.
Thanks.
P.S. Wait, I'm getting the impression that more recent SKUs come with the case?????
Post Edited (2022-08-04 04:56)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-08-04 06:19
At the time that Legere put the reed strength on a more solid applique along with their name, they came out with these over sized reed holders that they suggest you use along with the reed. They take up a huge amount of space (same case for ALL their single reeds including baritone sax). Also they claim it is best if the reed tip doesn't touch anything when stored (their case has a gel like holder specific to the ordered reed that allows most of the reed from the butt end on to the tip to "float." I could never get a straight answer from them why they feel that is necessary, and never had a problem with more standard and much more compact reed guards (I use the La Voz style plastic ones from Rico).
Someone on the Board derisively referred to the Legere holders as coffins and I choose to promulgate that description.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: kerryklari
Date: 2022-08-04 19:22
Alexi: thanks for that; I have found slight differences between Légère reeds but thought maybe it was just me, so it's good to know other people think the same.
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Author: lydian
Date: 2022-08-04 23:54
Slight tangent, but what strength are Legere Euro cut players using? I'm playing a 3 now on my .043" tip, and it's working ok except high G is difficult and unstable. Would a harder reed help?
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Author: super20dan
Date: 2022-08-10 23:13
i/ just had my 3rd legere euro reed warp at the tip and i kept them in the coffin. no more! they are going in the reed gaurd from now on
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-08-11 03:49
lydian,
The other factor is the length of the lay. Longer lays negate the openness of the tip.
For me, the key to the strength of Legere is getting them to hold up with gusto to spare across a full day of practice, rehearsal or performance. If it "poops out" within hours, then I'd say it's too weak, and just keep going up 1/4 strength at a time until you get the lasting quality. My strength comes in brand new just a little too firm. They calm down after a few outings and will last as long as a year or more (with rotation of at least four).
When the Legere begin to get older, for me I find notes above the altissimo G to be less reliable but G is always there!
............Paul Aviles
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Author: Clarineat
Date: 2022-11-08 07:35
I usually have about 8 on the go. 2 of each strength in a "spread" from 3.25 to 4. This way if I want a slightly harder or softer reed for any reason, it is there. My "go to" is the 3.75 but who knows how you're feeling that day or what the piece requires.
I think this is one reason some people aren't fond of synthetic reeds. They think they can buy one reed and it solves all their problems. But that's like only owning one pair of shoes. There are different shoes needed for different occasions or types of weather.
The downside of course is cost, but if you're rotating 8 reeds you can expect to only need to change them out every 1-2 years in my experience.
The other reason to do this is to "rest" the reeds. I find they take about 15 mins to get to their ideal point, but after 90 mins they get "tired" and edgy, and need to somehow rejuvenate themselves by resting for a day or two. Perhaps the fibres become more elastic with vibration or heat or something? I have no scientific evidence to back this up, and would be interested if others also find this.
Sean Perrin
Host of the Clarineat Podcast
Listen FREE at www.clarineat.com
hello@clarineat.com
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Author: Clarineat
Date: 2022-11-08 07:42
Donald, I think the theory (which remains to be tested) is that some of the kinetic energy of the reed vibrating converts to thermal energy, and thus warms up the fibres in the reed. The longer one plays the more chance the whole reed warms up and becomes more malleable because of this. I don't think anyone is claiming the reed will become hot, and surely not that body temperature is changing!
However, I believe that it is more likely that the fibres get tired from the vibration itself, similar to how if you bend metal enough times it weakens and breaks from metal fatigue. However, I cannot explain what would cause the reed's material to regain its properties after a resting period.
We clarinetists should have taken more science courses it seems.
Sean Perrin
Host of the Clarineat Podcast
Listen FREE at www.clarineat.com
hello@clarineat.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-11-08 21:42
There’s a fellow with the San Francisco Symphony who rotates through as much as four reeds during a performance. There are no “fibers” per se. They are plastic. Warmer plastic is more malleable than colder plastic. For me the trick is starting off with a brand new reed that is a little stiffer than you’d prefer. After a few plays it remains “permanently” at the right strength. I play hours per sitting and play all day long with no issues. BUT, I leave that reed in a flat reed guard for at least four days to ensure it “cools” flat. No reason NOT to let an individual reed sit unplayed for a few days.
…………Paul Aviles
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Author: JTJC
Date: 2022-11-08 23:34
I believe there's some sort of orientation/alignment process of the molecules in the production of the polypropylene used for Legere reeds. So no fibers as such, but you wouldn't get the same results if you cut a section out of a polypropylene bucket and whittled it to a reed shaped object.
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2022-11-09 00:05
It is entirely possible that microscopic cracks and other sorts of structural damage occur in the plastic and cause the apparent strength to decrease with use. Many polymers have the ability to "self-heal" and maybe Legere reeds are made of such a material, resulting in the improved strength after resting.
In such a case, the recovery time should be proportional to the temperature. I wonder if they recover quicker in a warm spot versus a cold spot? It might be a fun experiment, but I don't have Legere reeds to try.
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Author: jeig
Date: 2022-11-09 06:07
I only use Legere and rotate through 3 or 4 for 3-4 months. For me, that is the average life span of the reeds. There are exceptions.
I also find Legere reeds to be inconsistent regarding strength. (i.e. not all #4’s play the same. Just like with came reeds some reeds that are labeled the same play harder or lighter.)
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Author: hans
Date: 2022-11-09 06:47
JTJC,
Re: "...the molecules in the production of the polypropylene used for Legere reeds". I didn't know that Legere reeds were made from PP.
FWIW...we should consider that not all polypropylene is the same; it comes in a number of different grades, including TPP, which includes polyethylene to toughen it. A polypropylene bucket could be made from a very different PP product than a reed.
Regards,
Hans
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-11-09 08:17
As we speak about the differences in types of plastic I did want to put forth a criticism of Legere. Before the newer coating that contains the reed strength (this change in itself did not effect the sound of the reeds) the Soprano sax reeds were made of a different recipe that was easy to see and hear. The former Soprano sax reeds were a clearer plastic (not as cloudy as the Euro Cut Bb clarinet reeds) and the sound was a little more brittle. One also needed to use a Soprano sax strength significantly lower than what you'd use for the Euro cut clarinet reeds.
The end result was that you had a choice between two different sounds and two different responses. Now, the Soprano sax reeds and the Euro cut Bb reeds are the same plastic, play the same and share the same strength. Maybe this makes Legere's production easier than having to make two different types of reeds but it gives us less to choose from.
It does also seem the strength of the Euro Cut Bb clarinet reeds came down slightly at the same time, though not enough to cause me any real grief. It would be nice if any further refinements by Legere represent IMPROVEMENTS to the sound rather than ease of production only.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2022-11-15 00:05
I'm not sure about any restorative processes going on while Legere's aren't being played, but I do think that there is difference in play of one over the course of a session,( in addition of course to the natural trend towards degradation of any substance, cane or not, subject to so much movement over time) that would suggest keeping a couple on hand to simply handle long playing periods where switching them is indicated.
For me though, having a couple of Legere's on hand, particularly of different ages, is like the water in a bath's height corresponding to playability. Switching off degrades things more slowly, like closing off the drain somewhat, and staggering the age of the Legeres in your case allows, along with this slower overall reed specific degredation, the ability to transition new Legeres in and old ones out of the playing pool to micro adjust the height of the metaphorical water in that bath.
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2022-11-15 02:54
I own one (since 2018) and basically practice on it each day, but still use wood for concerts/rehearsals. It seems to be playing the same as 4 years ago, so I'm not sure what rotating plastic reeds accomplishes. But of course I am no expert on this.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
Post Edited (2022-11-15 02:55)
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2022-11-15 17:41
I carry 4-8 Synth reeds with me. But I don’t rotate them. I have them marked as to which are a little stiffer/softer or what works best with a mouthpiece choice. I usually just play my best one. If it wears out, I look for a new “best one”.
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-11-15 18:29
So mojo,
How much time do you usually get out of your best one?
……………Paul Aviles
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2022-11-15 23:46
Mojo-- What usually happens (to the sound, etc.) when one wears out?
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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Author: Larry Langsam
Date: 2022-11-15 23:52
Like you, I also think the new Légère European Signature cuts without the sticker are a little softer than the older model with a sticker. They also seem more vibrant--have more overtones. I like the sound better. I am having success using 3.25 and 3.5 strengths on a straight-from-the-factory Zimmer A blank with Uebel Superior clarinets and dark Rovner ligature. The Luyben ligature has a bit more resonance, but I like the security and ease of use that the Rovner offers. I will have to say I get a considerably better tone with a BD5 442 and Steurer Exclusive 2.5 or 3's. I rotate 4 Légère's and they will last for a year before I replace them. I store them in old aluminum reed guards.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-11-16 01:51
For me Tom, Legeres that are at the end of their useful life become too soft with all the associated issues; limited dynamic, less resonance, less definition of articulations.
But as I've said with a group of reeds being rotated I can get a year or more out ot the group.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2022-11-16 19:11
I usually practice once a week and rehearse 1-2X a week. I get 1-2 years life or more. I probably switch mouthpieces on BC more often. I have 3 I like.
I switch mouthpieces for what is programmed. I have a lot of high notes now so I’m using a 3D printed Grabner that is good in this range. So I also switched to a Legere that works well with this mouthpiece before the Legere I was using wore out. My other mouthpieces are a Selmer C* (articulates fast) and a Fobes San Fran (rich sound).
The reeds get worn around the edges or micro cracks in the vamp. But sometimes they just get soft and dull sounding. If Input on a backup and it now sounds better than my “best” reed, I know it is probably shot.
I have a black Onyx bari sax Fibereed I’m using on Contrabass. It has a nice dark sound. I think it is over 2 years old but the CBC gets less work. I have Legeres for backups.
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2022-11-21 14:37
I think the time to move on from an old Legere is probably similar to the time to move on from your best cane reed.
Meaning, it's hard as [redacted] to figure out when the heck that is!
I remember playing cane reeds and playing my best reeds over and over. I'd have 10 reeds in a giant case, and I'd find that I'd be using the same four over and over again. And I would use them forever. And out of curiousity I'd eventually open a new box of reeds and say, "What?! These are so much more resonant! Why am I sticking with these old reeds?!?!!" Then the break-in process and rotation would start over again.
Finding out when to move on from a legere reed is tough. I think if you REALLY want to be in peak performance condition at all times, just have a secondary two or three legere reeds at your house. And once a month, try them out and see if they feel better than the ones you're using every day. When the day comes that they feel better, well, it's time to replace them.
Right now I'm using two clarinet reeds in rotation, and three tenor sax reeds in rotation. They all feel good and do what I need, but I DO notice that my two newer legere sax reeds feel more comfortable than the older one. So it's almost time for me to retire that one.
Lex
US Army Japan Band
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Author: donald
Date: 2022-11-21 15:32
JTJC is correct that Legere reeds are made from a form of polypropylene. This is laid down in a series of strips to make the Reed profile (in a form of 3d printing) and the strength is controlled by variation in the material. Some people appear to believe they are molded which is not the case.
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Author: Clarineat
Date: 2022-11-22 01:49
I find that when they reach the end of life they start to sound unmusical and unresponsive, especially in high register.
Dynamic control becomes more difficult at the extremities, and high notes especially "break up" and sound more harsh.
Of course another great way to tell they are done is if I accidentally break or bend them. I small bump on the corner of a stand or catching it on a shirt sleeve seems to do as much damage or more than cane reeds. I recently bent one while teaching a workshop and was disappointed to find I forgot my normal reed container at home and had to make due, which was nearly impossible.
I'm not sure why once bent they don't just bend back. But, alas, that reed is now in the recycle.
Sean Perrin
Host of the Clarineat Podcast
Listen FREE at www.clarineat.com
hello@clarineat.com
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