 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Steve0001
Date: 2022-06-23 12:49
Does anyone have any idea why there are so many R13s located in Japan that are for sale on eBay? EBay shows 171 listings for "R13 clarinet" and of those 171 listings, 59 are for R13s located in Japan. That's 34.5%! - more than a third! There is at least one that is listed several times (judging from identical photos) for similar but not identical prices (not sure that's allowed). Those R13s I have looked at appear authentic (they are old, showing wear and corrosion - something the counterfeits from China never have). I am wondering if some of the sellers are scammers posting photos of authentic instruments, but not actually having possession and having no intention of sending the instrument to any buyers.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-06-23 14:43
I heard from a friend of a friend that in Japan, a lot of young musicians are woodwind players. The person said that it is because the youth bands there are all set up to have a lot of wind players rather than oodles of string players the way we have here.
I'm not sure if that's right or if I might have remembered wrong from hearing a while ago, but is it possible that Japan just has a really large number of clarinet players?
Might it be worth asking Valencio, who has just joined the forum from China? He might have some insight into it?
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2022-06-23 17:43
A lot of them (not all) are shady sellers who are reposting locally available instruments. They do not physically have the instrument, but they will buy it locally after you win their auction and sell it for profit. You may or may not have good luck with those types of sellers. The shipping times will be long, the seller may cancel the sale unexpectedly if they cannot purchase the instrument locally for the right price after the auction. You will not get any warranty/repair support and probably returning the instrument after the sale will be difficult/impossible. These sellers often repost the same instrument in multiple sales as well and will ultimately cancel all sales but the highest bidder.
I do not know why there are some many from Japan right now, maybe some Ebay policy or local laws make this easier for the Japanese to do this...There are sellers from other countries that do this too.
I would suggest you take a look at the store ID selling the instrument and see what else they sell on ebay. If they have 20,000+ items for sale that are not music instruments they are probably a re-poster like I described.
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2022-06-23 17:47
BTW, it is fairly simple these days to write a computer script to generate these ebay ads automatically after skimming the local "for sale" websites. That is how the sellers can run storefronts selling huge quantities of unrelated merchandise. It is probably run by one or a small number of people.
Buyer beware...if the deal is too good to be true...it probably is.
If you want to find out, send the seller a very specific question about the instrument. Ask something that is not obvious from the posted pictures and description. Or ask for a new photo showing some hidden detail of the instrument or case or similar. The seller response should give you an idea if they are a real person or a Bot and whether the have the instrument in their possession or not. Although, they may be able to simply pass on the question to the original seller and then repeat the response back to you...you never know...
Post Edited (2022-06-23 17:54)
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Author: m1964
Date: 2022-06-23 23:52
Hunter_100 wrote:
>
> Buyer beware...if the deal is too good to be true...it probably
> is.
>
There not so good deals to begin with.
Also, like the saying goes "the devil is in details'.
What I mean is that even if the instrument does not have any cracks, if many of the tone holes need resurfacing and keys have wobble requiring swedging, the cost of repair of such an instrument can go up very quickly.
At least, buying locally, preferably in person (off CL, FB), can give you an opportunity to check the instrument.
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Author: LFabian
Date: 2022-06-25 03:54
I bought a 2nd hand R-13 from San Diego. The pictures and description were extensive. I called the seller after I bought it. The clarinet was customized, stored for 20 years, overhauled, prepped and polished. No damages. A great deal. A Charles Bay duckbill mouthpiece with an engraved ligature and a custom Barrel were added. The prep work for new clarinets was also done. A great deal and a great price. This clarinet is one of the few Charles Bay customized R-13s.
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Author: Steve0001
Date: 2022-06-29 04:36
I was using eBay only as a gauge of price, not looking to purchase there (although I have previously). Sure, there are scammers all over, but I am pretty good at identifying and avoiding them. I raised the question about all the Japanese-origin R13s because I don't understand that phenomenon and wondered if anybody did.
So yes, I did pick up a pair of vintage Bb / A R13s from another source at a fair price (probably more than fair actually). I will know more when they arrive; I have only seen photos, but they look real good in the photos and are likely a matched pair judging from the serial numbers.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2022-06-29 17:35
super20dan wrote:
> there is FAR more fraud on FB than ebay
Very possible. Once, when I wanted to look at a Buffet R13A from CL/FB- the boyfriend of the seller requested meeting in a police precinct.
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Author: EaubeauHorn
Date: 2022-06-30 04:34
I agree that the fraud level on FB is extreme. I'm in the market for a symphony-level violin, and the FB ads astonish me. Some grungy old thing said to be an antique Italian made violin, and it does not have the obvious things that would have to have been done to modernize that instrument; in the pictures I asked for, it actually looked beat up. AND a price tag of something like $18,000. I mean, WOW. A fool born every minute?
I bought my pro level oboe off of ebay at a very good price, after corresponding with the seller (In Michigan) and deciding he/it was legit; they either know what they are talking about or they don't. I also got my euphonium off of ebay quite a few years ago, at a very good price because the bell had been creased (which doesn't affect how it plays once fixed, just the appearance.) So far I have not been ripped off on ebay but I also think I'm reasonably wary. Nowadays, you better know your seller personally, or know someone who does know them personally.
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Author: donald
Date: 2022-06-30 10:10
While I can't comment on suspicious sales etc, it's worth noting that in Japan 2nd hand instruments have almost NO value, so there are a large number of people buying 2nd hand instruments, re furbishing them and selling them in other countries where they have more value.
- No student in Japan will play on a 2nd hand instrument
- Parents will often buy professional level instruments for beginner students in the belief that this will help them advance (and, well, sometimes it does).
Here in NZ there are at least 2 "sources" of such instruments- and one major instrument retailer ONLY stocks refurbished instruments from Japan (often in pristine condition).
One of my students was able to buy a Yamaha student instrument for about $100 US$ that was in excellent condition - and the seller DEFINITELY sold it for profit, they were not "doing a favour" that's for sure! He must have sourced it for 20-50$ in order to make any $$$ (the pads were 80% original... it will need work soon, but WAS only 100$ and will be worth fixing).
An English repair dude who worked here for a while married a Japanese woman and now lives in Japan, they pay their rent selling 2nd hand flutes to UK, NZ and Australia (basically wherever he has contacts on the ground who will handle the instruments).
It's quite a legit enterprise, however of course there may be sharks...
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Author: m1964
Date: 2022-07-01 01:26
donald wrote:
> While I can't comment on suspicious sales etc, it's worth
> noting that in Japan 2nd hand instruments have almost NO value,
> so there are a large number of people buying 2nd hand
> instruments, re furbishing them and selling them in other
> countries where they have more value.
> - No student in Japan will play on a 2nd hand instrument
> - Parents will often buy professional level instruments for
> beginner students in the belief that this will help them
> advance...
Donald,
Thanks for the info- unfortunately the price of a round-trip ticket to Tokyo does not justify going used clarinet shopping there
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Author: donald
Date: 2022-07-02 10:54
Yeah obviously. That's exactly why there's money to be made if you live in Japan and want to export used instruments. No one suggested you go there.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2022-07-03 20:56
donald wrote:
> Yeah obviously. That's exactly why there's money to be made if
> you live in Japan and want to export used instruments. No one
> suggested you go there.
I was not serious about going to Japan from the US.
Going to Europe is another story, but only for new instruments since the used ones are not eligible for VAT reduction.
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Author: MikeSF
Date: 2024-06-22 10:15
Attachment: MikeSF_Buffet.jpg (517k)
I'm reviving a zombie thread with a data point in hopes future searchers will have some usable information.
I'm in California and have been seriously shopping for a clean 70s-90's Buffet R13. After visiting all the local shops and playing instruments and making some offers on Reverb.com to some of the large stocking dealers (there's a busy one in KY), I have a good sense of what's out there and what the market will bear for prices.
I too saw scads of R13s on eBay Japan and decided to research these too, highly wary of scammers. I read reviews of high volume resellers and then studied the text of the ads for bots, duplicates, price discrepancies, etc. I then selected a reputable store and asked for specific photos (your finger pointing to the serial # on this clarinet).
Long story short, I made an offer to a Japanese shop, which was immediately accepted. I paid and received an order confirmation with the weight and ser.# of the instrument. I refreshed the FedEx shipping tracker 2x/day to make sure the package was moving. Would you believe on day 6 I got an email my R13 was out for delivery. It was here before noon and is even BETTER than described and the pictures suggested. I easily saved $350-500 vs the other dealer in Kentucky and >$600 vs anything local that new and clean.
Seriously, I am amazed at the huge selection and comparatively lower prices buying from Japan. BTW, overnight FedEx shipping was included and there was sales tax but no other duties or fees.
I also buy guitars and will tap into the giant stock of pre-owned guitars in Japan next time.
FWIW, sharing to help the next person who is unsure about trying it.
Mike
Post Edited (2024-06-22 10:20)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2024-06-22 23:52
I've worked on a couple of used older student level Yamaha saxes (a YTS-21 and a YTS-22) bought directly from Japan (off eBay) and they were in exceptional condition, even though they required a full overhaul due to their age and the fact they still had the original pads, key felts and corks which obviously deteriorated with age and use as those are the consumables.
All used instruments have to go somewhere and it's better they enjoy a second lease of life than just languishing in some cupboard, never to be played again.
Another Far Eastern country where used pro level instruments ought to be plentiful is Korea where parents often buy their kids top level oboes from the word go and they also opt for things like exotic woods and gold plated keywork. I'm sure there's also a similar thing with used pro and prestige level clarinets from the obvious makes, so I think this is also an avenue well worth investigating if you're in the market for a used pro/prestige level clarinet, oboe, sax, flute, piccolo, bassoon or whatever.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2024-06-25 15:39
Right now, the clarinets on eBay from Japanese sellers are not cheap.
In the US, we have to pay the import duty tax (which the sellers do advise about).
You do not know the tax amount ahead of time; the bill comes 2-4 weeks after you get a delivery.
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Author: gwie
Date: 2024-06-30 07:24
See Chapter 92 of the 2024 Harmonized Tariff Schedule (HTS) here for import duty on musical instruments: https://hts.usitc.gov/search?query=musical
For woodwinds/clarinets, the general rate is 4.9%, but there is a "duty free" Japan Special Rate.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2024-06-30 10:20
gwie wrote:
>... For woodwinds/clarinets, the general rate is 4.9%, but there is
> a "duty free" Japan Special Rate.
4.9% sounds about right. The FedEx bill also had a "disbursement fee" of $13.
Basically, I got taxed twice...the state sales tax and this import duty...
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Author: MikeSF
Date: 2024-07-02 05:10
Just adding to my post above that I received the export tax bill from FedEx for the R13 I purchased from eBay Japan. It was $54 and I was able to pay online easily.
In short, I've got a '95 R13, silver plated keys, nearly new condition, no cracks, fresh corks and pads throughout, completely unmarked case with a zippered outer cover, unused buffet mouthpiece. All for $1550 out the door. That includes tax, shipping, customs. This is a tremendous value versus current comps online and local to me.
A big part of learning a new clarinet is figuring out what tuning adjustments must be made. I am thrilled to discover the intonation is excellent; I've already figured out which adjustments to make on the fly to improve a small handful of notes. Also unlike the '70s era r13s I've played, there's no fuzzy sounding throat Bb, which is a relief.
Again, a very positive experience buying from Japan, shipping to California.
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