 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2022-05-02 02:56
When I first came across this "Clarinet Reed Adjustment" webpage, my first thoughts were along the line of equipment, i.e., reed knife, reed rush, Reed Geek, etc. However, as I read through the article, I quickly realized that this was a method I had never read about before. (Although new to me, I sense that to some or even to many of you, this method is old news.)
So, here's the method: http://www.clarinet-now.com/clarinet-reed-adjustment.html
And, as mentioned in the article, here's the book: https://www.hickeys.com/music/text_and_trade_books/books_about_instruments/general_woodwinds/products/sku043986-opperman-kalmen-revised-handbook-for-makingadjusting-single-reeds.php
Hopefully, someone will find the above useful.
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2022-05-03 06:22
I know of all the suggestions but don't agree with some of those mentioned.
1 - I always have my 12 best reeds in priority order and re-arrange them every few days to have the best set ready to use. I happen to own three aluminum ‘four slot’ reed holders. For practice or performance, I choose the best of the top 4 and use that one. Maybe this is 'rotating' automatically, but I am not required to play the scheduled reed. Since temperatures and humidity change daily, the site says you will be forced to play whatever is next, not whatever is best. By playing the best, you are also probably rotating at the same time.
2 - Trying every position to find where it plays best is too time consuming. Tom Ridenour (a former student of mine, and we were both students of Kalmen Opperman more than 50 years ago), has videos of tests to reveal what is wrong, with a reed, and then, how to place the reed in the best position for it.
I have also expanded on Tom's ideas to better determine the best position on the mouthpiece in the quickest time. For instance, play a long note G4, and rock the mouthpiece a little back and forth. If the sound is not equal on both sides, the position of the reed needs to be moved right or left. The side that is up is vibrating, and which ever side is duller, is harder, and the ‘up’ side of the reed needs to be moved a bit toward the center of the mouthpiece.
3 - You do NOT need stronger mouth to play stronger reeds. Set the hard reeds aside and learn to fix them some other time. With a good reed/embouchure/air speed combination, it is possible to play all the five reed responsibilities, Highest, Lowest, Loudest, Softest, and Response, on a soft, well-fixed reed.
Everyone is different, and reed tricks may be entirely different for each player. There is no bast way that works for all, so pick and choose what works best for your situation.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-05-03 08:18
I believe in rotating through all the reeds that "work." So you have your order and realize (outside of concerts and important rehearsals) that you will have a "less than ideal" time with the four or so out of a box of ten (and let's say the first two are really good). This way you keep YOURSELF more flexible regarding what you get since you're not always gong to have a good reed day for a critical gig.
As for position of reed, there is ONLY ONE. You position the reed symmetrically (dead center to the table and the left and right rails). AND you find a spot up and down where you cover the top rail but but don't protrude too far (this is variable to the strength of the reed but there are reasonable limits).
I don't even know what "stronger mouth" is supposed to mean other than biting. PLEASE watch this video that should be entitled "How to get a great sound on the clarinet."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYBzMOm7EJQ
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: super20dan
Date: 2022-05-03 17:11
thank goodness for legere.if i was only playing Bb clar it would be different but on bass and alto legere out preforms cane for me. i still must use cane on eb clarinet as i cant get the higest notes to speak reliably on legere
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2022-05-03 21:28
First of all, my thanks to all who have responded. Excellent, personalized methods were revealed by everyone.
super20dan, you beat me to it when you mentioned Legere reeds. However, I have several questions for you: 1) Do you rotate your Legere reeds? 2) When you play continuously for a rather long period of time, have you ever felt the need to quickly swap out one Legere for another for whatever reason? 3) Do you find the same reed strengths to play basically the same when going from one new Legere reed to another? 4) On your Eb clarinet, have you tried a slightly stronger reed strength to hit the highest notes reliably?
I have a question that I would like to pose to everyone. When a player adjusts a cane reed alone using one of the various devices on the market, due to varying cane densities that could possibly exist as part of the reed structure coupled with possible slight variations in facing abnormalities, is the reed truly optimized? I suspect not because I believe the cane reed optimization has to be done while attached to the mouthpiece to encompass all of the possible abnormalities in the reed, the mouthpiece facing, and even, possibly, the type of ligature that is used. Actually, I believe that the attached cane reed is really being optimized to the entire clarinet.
What do you think?
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2022-05-03 23:45
Dan Shusta wrote:
> I have a question that I would like to pose to everyone. When a
> player adjusts a cane reed alone using one of the various
> devices on the market, due to varying cane densities that could
> possibly exist as part of the reed structure coupled with
> possible slight variations in facing abnormalities, is the reed
> truly optimized? I suspect not because I believe the cane reed
> optimization has to be done while attached to the mouthpiece to
> encompass all of the possible abnormalities in the reed, the
> mouthpiece facing, and even, possibly, the type of ligature
> that is used. Actually, I believe that the attached cane reed
> is really being optimized to the entire clarinet.
>
> What do you think?
>
Dan, I don't think I understand what you're asking or what you're rejecting ("I suspect not..."). To begin with, there are players who scrape their reeds to adjust balance without taking the reed off the mouthpiece. This is very possible with either a knife or a reed geek. I don't think it's practical to do it with even a narrow swatch of sandpaper, but it may be possible. The only tool I don't think I could do on-the-mouthpiece adjustment with is rush.
IMO you are certainly optimizing the reed to the entire clarinet - the reed is only a part of the overall system. Even if you do reed adjustments by selectively removing cane with the reed on a separate flat surface, you're still trying to optimize the reed *to the mouthpiece and instrument in a specific acoustic environment.* When you put the reed back on the mouthpiece and affix the ligature to hold it, you want the entre clarinet (system) to sound optimal. Or do you have something else in mind?
Karl
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2022-05-04 02:21
Karl, it appears that you effectively hit the proverbial "nail right on the head".
What I was trying to get across is that some devices (I believe) can correct or refine the original manufacturing process which sometimes turns out uneven or slightly malformed cane reeds. To me, this "adjustment" may indeed help but can't really be looked upon as being "optimized" due to its being "isolated" from the entire clarinet.
Whatever tool is used to modify the cane reed either "on" or "off" the mouthpiece can only be verified for improvement towards optimization by playing it on the instrument.
Now, when it comes to Legere reeds, since no adjustment is possible, then a player will either have to go through a process of finding a mouthpiece whose facing parameters match the reed or find a maker of mouthpieces like Walter Grabner who modifies his facing arc numbers to properly match a specific strength of a Legere reed.
Thanks for your comments.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-05-04 03:50
I don't believe that there are ANY benefits to mouthpieces marketed specifically for Legere. In fact, I find many of the "Legere friendly" mouthpieces mistakenly are made with thicker rails. Thicker rails usually make the response slower and make the sound less crisp. I personally use both an old Hawkins and a Behn Sono with VERY thins rails that work great with Legere Euro Cut.
As for rotation of Legere, I use at least four and ideally eight in rotation but only from day to day. I find that once you find the RIGHT strength of Legere, it WILL last throughout an entire day of rehearsals and performances. In fact, I only rotate with the belief that a period of "rest" for the reed should help the longevity, but I have on multiple occasions used one Legere across multiple days (with cleaning in between of course)! As for the reed strength from old-to-new, there is some adjustment on the player's part since the Legeres (as any other reed) will begin to play with a bit less resistance over time. But this is a natural part of starting new reeds. I would still challenge anyone to have that change over happen only once a year with cane!
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2022-05-04 06:11
Hi Paul, I enjoyed reading your comments. When you mentioned how well the Legere Euro cut worked with Brad's SONO mouthpiece, I did a little investigating.
On Brad's main page, I clicked on his Reed drop down menu and didn't find Legeres listed.
I next clicked on the SONO, read through the entire page and couldn't find any mention of Legere reeds.
I did a little further digging and found that Brad had set up a separate webpage on the Legere Euro cut reeds. What I derived from all of this was if Brad knew that his mouthpieces wouldn't work well on his mouthpieces, he simply wouldn't have mentioned them at all. (I've known Brad for around 10 years and worked closely with him as a proof reader of his initial website pages at the start of his business.)
So, why didn't Brad include Legere reeds in his Reed drop down menu and why didn't he mention them on his SONO mouthpiece page?
If you read his comments on his Legere Euro cut webpage, I think you'll come to the same conclusion that I have.
https://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com/legere-signature-reeds
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-05-04 07:40
Hey Dan,
I looked at comments. Brad has said on several occasions that he personally prefers cane. There is no surprise there. Cane (well broken in) is just the best sound. HOWEVER, the Euro Cut reeds maximize the sound of synthetic and there are some things you can do to maximize your Legere experience. The first is to really hunt down the best strength for your mouthpiece (and that is ANY great mouthpiece.....nothing specific needed). Then, placement is VERY VERY important for Legere. Just being off center by a small degree can cause significant degradation of the sound (also you CANNOT be too far past the tip rail. These reeds have a really narrow ideal placement range). Finally, the ligature material REALLY does make a huge difference in the response and dynamic range. For the budget conscious, you can produce some really good sounds out of the Luyben ligatures (really, any plastic ligature will allow better vibrational characteristics than any metal, leatherette or fabric ligature). I have recently discovered the wonders of carbon fiber (not the Vientos Vintage which only contain a modicum of carbon material, but the Eddie Daniels and mostly the Carbonissimo.......currently working with them to supply a full throttled review soon). And finally the placement of the ligature is also quite limited and also quite critical. For the plastics I find up to the top line of ligature works best and the carbons want to be lower (middle OR even slightly weighted toward the lower line of ligature). So there is a finicky aspect that needs attention as well to get the best out of the Legeres. Cane is much much more forgiving on that score.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2022-05-04 08:31
Thanks, Paul.
For those who are thinking about Legeres or are having problems making them perform at their best for them, I believe your post above would be very beneficial for them.
Now, the only thing that concerns me about Legere reeds is properly securing their critical positioning on any mouthpiece. It almost sounds as if the slightest accidental slippage of alignment during a performance could possibly make a great sounding reed all of a sudden sound disastrous. That comes across to me as scary...
It also appears that caution of handling the mouthpiece is of utmost importance.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2022-05-04 18:13
Dan Shusta wrote:
>
> What I was trying to get across is that some devices (I
> believe) can correct or refine the original manufacturing
> process which sometimes turns out uneven or slightly malformed
> cane reeds. To me, this "adjustment" may indeed help but can't
> really be looked upon as being "optimized" due to its being
> "isolated" from the entire clarinet.
>
Funny Dan, I've never considered suboptimal performance of, say, a Vandoren reed right out of the box due to cutting inconsistencies..much that I suspect it happens.
As you may know, Vandoren prides itself--quality control notwithstanding--on cutting to tolerances of less than a human hair. Assuming this true, I've tended to "write off" symmetry differences in play to the idea that within the single reed itself there can be differences in strength, despite for all intents and purposes identical thickness, due to mother nature producing variances not simply between reeds, but within a single reed itself.
And of course a mouthpiece's idiosyncrasies and a players anatomy can take what some see as a perfectly balanced reed in another mouth and setup, and make it unbalanced.
So for me, a perfectly symmetrical reed is one where a particular player, on a particular mouthpiece, finds symmetry, removing material from the reed in ways that were thickness measurements of the reed taken, physical symmetry may be off despite playing symmetry being optimized.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-05-04 20:18
I must disagree with the basic premise of above post with regard to "BALANCE." Cane is wood and therefore has its own internal characteristics of fiber integrity, firmness, density etc. Of course we start off with as much symmetry of tolerance as possible, but that is just to limit variables, not prevent them, which is impossible.
As for Legeres, I don't want to make them sound scary, they are really no more subject to movement on a mouthpiece than cane (well, they are slipperier, but essentially there is no added insecurity under normal circumstances).
I have in recent months been using Perierra 3D ligatures left VERY VERY loose. With that approach you do need to remove the mouthpiece off the clarinet using the barrel. Other than that (an extreme example) they work like like any other reed in that respect. Once you have it on with your ligature, you can leave there for the day.......I have never had any issues with that. If as mentioned earlier, the reed fails to endure a rehearsal or performance, the issue is that the strength is too weak and you must go up a quarter strength (continue the advance in strength until that issue stops).
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2022-05-04 20:55
Thanks Paul for your added assurance of Legere reed placement stabilization.
SecondTry: I view cane reed optimization as being very personal, i.e., to a particular player at a very specific point in time. As the article below reveals, an optimized reed for a "specific player" (MI), can play wonderful one day and be lousy the next.
There are, unfortunately, so many variables to take into consideration when dealing with cane reeds.
https://clarinet.org/adjusting-reeds-for-the-beginner-to-advanced/
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2022-05-04 21:14
Paul Aviles wrote:
> I must disagree with the basic premise of above post with
> regard to "BALANCE."
Assuming its my post you refer to, I don't understand where your difference in thought lies Paul.
Like Dan so well expressed, (playing) balance of a reed, for me at least, is something I think that is a measure of a player's own subjective opinion, on their gear, at a point in time, in which physical measurements of a reed may actually show physical imbalance in order to achieve playing balance, or not.
This is why I am very skeptical of devices like the Perfect-a-Reed, at least used in isolation of other techniques. Two identically shaped reeds (at least within the fractions of a millimeter tolerances that we can achieve) have no guarantee of playing similarly given the inherent differences in the cane that mother nature has placed in each reed, and even within areas of a single reed itself.
I respect that people feel differently about this tool or use it as a means to initially shape a reed consistent with a shape that has historically shown them good fortune, which then may be followed up by minor removal of cane from reed sections, to tailor the reed, consistent with any of the generally recognized methods of material remove, from reed rush, to knives, to the ATG system, etc.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-05-04 22:23
My disagreement is in the implication that placement on the mouthpiece is subjective (though you may not be saying that ……clarify?). A mouthpiece (unless created with a purposely asymmetrical facing) has very close, identical tolerances on both sides: length of facing, style of curve, thickness of rails, depth to baffle. Just a minor angle off axis throws that all into peril. I realize that an immediate action can be taken if a particular reed comes up heavier on one side (and cane is rather forgiving). But this is NOT the ideal and should be avoided. The various adjustment systems are arbitrary, but if they aid getting a better symmetry on a reed, and it works, then I’m all for it. Personally, I was always better off just living with what I got out of a box after rehydrating.
………Paul Aviles
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2022-05-04 23:57
Wow, Paul! You just brought up a very important point!
How can any player do a left side of reed test then a right side of reed test if the mouthpiece purposely has an asymmetrical facing? According to my understanding, this test would be completely useless.
Perhaps the article that I listed at the very beginning should have mentioned that this test was only good on "symmetrical" clarinet mouthpiece facings.
Now...this brings up another question in my mind. How does a player optimize his or her reed to an asymmetrical mouthpiece?
Is Reed Wizard a possible solution for asymmetrical facings?
https://banddirector.com/woodwinds/mouthpiece-reeds/understanding-and-selecting-a-clarinet-mouthpiece/ Please read paragraph before "Tip Opening:"
Post Edited (2022-05-05 00:16)
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2022-05-05 01:40
I never spoke to mouthpiece placement Paul but I think that you're right that on the same mouthpiece, that most players would agree on, for example, which side of an unbalanced reed was harder/softer.
Then again, we all have slightly different bites.
Dan: you ask you to balance a reed on the (dreaded) asymmetrical mouthpiece...
Well, those asymmetries would likely find a perfectly balanced reed (on a symmetrical mouthpiece) to be out of balance, and the player, at least in theory could take the reed out of balance (as measured on a symmetrical mouthpiece) to counterbalance the asymmetrical mouthpiece's imbalances.
That's a lot of balances! https://twitter.com/JoshButler/status/778155624773324800/photo/2
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Author: donald
Date: 2022-05-05 05:25
You can still do the side to side test on an asymmetrical mouthpiece, you just end up adjusting the reed so it is also asymmetrical (in a way that counterbalances the asymmetry of the mouthpiece).
It will now play better than before.
Yes, I know the mouthpiece is DELIBERATELY asymmetrical and this is supposed to achieve something, but this is one of the stupidest ideas that mouthpiece makers ever came up with.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2022-05-05 06:22
donald,
Thank you for your simple, yet brilliant (MO) solution to balancing a cane reed on an asymmetrical mouthpiece. I have never read, heard, or even thought about how it could be done. Thank you for sharing your expertise.
This is why I come to this BB...to learn.
As to asymmetrical facings, here's what Ben Redwine has to say about them:
https://www.rjmusicgroup.com/blog/assymetrical-mouthpiece-facings
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-05-05 07:24
Interesting info from Ben Redwine on Asymmetrical facings. I thought there was more to it than that such as the effects of "fluid dynamics" and eddys. Addressing this (what I believed) was meant to help prevent the reed from binding during vibration......."squeaking."'
All I know for sure is that I have collected a number of old Hawkins R facings and had them meaured by Dave McClune. Turns out one that was custom made for a prominent Japanese clarinetist has an asymmetrical facing. It is off one number down the line on one side and it plays just as great (free blowing) as the other three.
For those who know what these numbers mean it is:
1.04 tip opening
5-6
11-12
20-22
31-32
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: JTJC
Date: 2022-05-05 18:16
From measurements I’ve taken many mouthpieces have asymmetrical facings. Particularly the common mid-priced models by big makers - basically mass produced with a little finishing. I don’t think the asymmetry was intended. The asymmetry isn’t necessarily huge nor consistent along the whole lay, as in Paul’s example, but of that order. A lot of people are unknowingly playing asymmetrical facings.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2022-05-05 20:47
I'd guess that Tom Ridenour's ATG (against the grain) system of (cane) reed adjustment is probably one of the best selling and most preferred systems out there.
I think much can be learned about reed adjustment by examining why this is the case.
And I believe it is the case because Tom combines established tools and techniques with a player subjective approach to reed balance that has no basis in physically measuring a reed. By incorporating a player's biases as to where on a reed is too resistant, it compensates for asymmetries in inter-reed strength, mouthpiece facing, and player biometrics.
(This is in no way to advocate for anything but best mouthpieces and player mechanics.)
Measuring tools have their place, particularly for those who make their own reeds: a process I respect but neither do, nor agree with. I feel this way because the average player is not likely to have access to better quality cane or tools to make reeds than large higher end institutional reed makers. Time is your most precious asset in becoming a proficient player, and modifying purchased reeds, I feel, is a quicker path to reeds acceptable enough to spend that time playing music, not woodworking.
Post Edited (2022-05-05 20:47)
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Author: gwie
Date: 2022-05-07 21:29
At some point, I realized that I was spending so much time working with reeds, it was cutting into my playing time. Getting older, my patience for dealing with the unpredictable nature of cane products has diminished significantly. Switching to Brad Behn's mouthpieces, I've bought into an idea he has brought up repeatedly, and I paraphrase: "the goal of a mouthpiece optimized for a plastic reed is to mitigate the issues of plastic as much as possible, while providing a cane-like experience for the player." For me, that means the mouthpiece is a bit more lively, to compensate for the more covered tone quality that is inherent with plastic.
While I still play on cane reeds, for anything important, I use my Behn mouthpiece and Legere Signature Euro 3.5. I have a DOZEN of them that I rotate between, and they've lasted an exceptionally long time. The consistency of performance from the get-go every time is wonderful, and as long as I am consistent and detail-oriented about the reed placement, I get 90%-95% of the performance of my best cane reeds, every single time.
And the toolkit? I leave it at home, and spend more time playing and enjoying music, and not fussing over reeds. It isn't everyone's cup of tea, but for me it has been a huge time-saver.
Gene
Post Edited (2022-05-08 09:25)
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2022-05-08 06:08
Hey Paul,
When I looked at the numbers of your Hawkins R asymmetrical faced mouthpiece, I noticed something interesting right away. Allow me to reprint the numbers with some additional annotations:
1.04 tip opening
5-6........1 Brand level lower
11-12......1 Brand level lower
20-22......2 Brand level lower
31-32......1 Brand level lower
(The left numbers are for the left rail and the right numbers are for the right rail when looking at the mpc with the tip at the top or away from you.)
My interpretation of the 2 Brand level lower in actual elevation at point 22, means (to me) that there is a slight dip in the facing. There appears to be a Brand 1 or 0.5mm dip in the curve. All of these numbers simply mean that the asymmetrical railing (which is usually longer) is simply not even or smooth in its curvature.
Now, taking into effect that the Legere reed is basically a hard plastic reed (MO), I am more than just slightly amazed that your Legere reed plays with the same results on a symmetrical facing as well as on an asymmetrical facing which is also not even or smooth in its curvature. That level of "forgiveness" I believe would be more likely found in a cane reed vs a plastic reed.
That that level of "forgiveness" is found in a Legere plastic reed still amazes me.
Three cheers for Legere!
p.s. I certainly am no mouthpiece expert, so my evaluation may be incorrect.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-05-08 07:09
It’s important to internalize that Legeres function like any other reed. When I speak of “forgiveness,” it is that cane being wood does have more springiness (hence the optimal upper partials). Legeres are just slightly less lively, but those who haven’t tried them need to experience the positives (as stated eloquently by “gwie”).
Another factor that helps is the use of ligatures made from plastics, polymers and carbon fiber (in ascending effectiveness). The carbon fiber ligatures bring Legeres in line with cane for sound.
……………Paul Aviles
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2022-05-14 20:55
Most of this article should, and probably is. obvious to the professional player. When it comes to finding the right cane reed for the player, learning what adjustments and how to make them for the player comes down to one basic thing. The level of the player. The higher level the fussier the player. Sure there were times I had to play on less than "a perfect" reed but I'd always strive for it. Tone numbers one, articulation number 2, feeling and response number 3, endurance number 4. For me as a professional player for 51 years I developed my technique with reeds so that I always had eight clarinet reeds ready to go in rotation, some more appropriate for chamber music some for orchestra. I always strived for perfection but had to settle the best I had. By the way, on bass clarinet I used one reed all the time, practiced on others and always had at least four to eight ready to go at any time.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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