 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: pritishbudhrani
Date: 2021-12-05 11:37
Hi, so I'm wondering if the Yamaha YCL-650 is a small bore clarinet because I have one and its very difficult to play through loud bands. I play with a band taht is overall is very loud and I find myself having to force sound out of my horn. I use a RS Berkeley Benny Goodman mouthpiece with Vandoren V12 size 3 reeds. I might be getting my hands on a Selmer CT very soon so will that help with my sound?
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Author: pritishbudhrani
Date: 2021-12-05 12:02
Btw, I am a Jazz Clarinetist so I'm the only clarinetist in the band and I'm always competing with a trumpet and trombone and an alto
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-12-05 14:38
Is it like the first piece in this video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rOBlvEwczQ
I can't imagine how the clarinet can be heard at all, unless he had some solos.
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Author: pritishbudhrani
Date: 2021-12-06 01:04
@SunnyDaze
No it's one of each instrument usually but I still have a lot of trouble ever cutting through
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2021-12-06 19:48
A Selmer CT could help indeed but you would also need a good (loud) mouthpiece. I don't know the RS mouthpiece.
On small bore clarinets like Buffet and Yamaha the Vandoren 5JB works very well to get a loud and rich sound.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2021-12-07 07:54
I don't think the 650 is unusually small bore ... and mine was bright, sweet, centered and had good projection. But I didn't play jazz. It was similar to my YCL-62 (YCL-65 in A) that I played back in my semi-pro orchestra days two decades ago. I bought the 62 on the advice of my clarinet teacher that moved back to the USA from the UK ... it wasn't long before he switched back to the R13 to blend/tune better with the 2nd clarinet in our flagship orchestra.
An old Selmer CT or Series 9 (not the 9 star) might have a more powerful sound ...?
Tom
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Author: vintschevski
Date: 2021-12-07 10:39
Hi, pritishbudhrani!
It might be useful to clarify a couple of things: is your entire band just clarinet, alto sax, trumpet and trombone? Or do you have bass, guitar/keyboard and percussion as well?
And are you playing "acoustically", that is, without amplification or are you all playing into microphones or have microphones attached to your instruments? (If you have microphones, it's just possible that the microphone is not placed in the best spot for the clarinet - some people think that the microphone needs to go only under the bell of the clarinet, but that won't suffice, a microphone needs to be over the tone holes of the instrument. And of course, you would need to chat to the sound person about getting the balance right so that you can be heard.)
I've had the pleasure of playing a Yamaha 650 only once and it was my impression that it was quite powerful enough. My own inclination would be to suggest a stiffer reed, at least a V12 3.5 with perhaps a Vandoren M15 mouthpiece. But clarification of the points above will help people give good advice. It might also be useful to know whether you are playing most of the time in a high enough register to be above the trumpet and alto sax - at least when you aren't soloing.
Cheers!
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Author: pritishbudhrani
Date: 2021-12-07 12:07
My band usually consists of alto sax, trumpet, trombone, ukelele, banjo, bass, piano and drums. The drummer, trumpet player and the alto sax player all pplay unusually loud, much louder than anyone else in the band. Even the trombone player has difficulty keeping up. We play with mics half of the time and without mics the other half. The alto sax player actually also plays clarinet and when he plays clarinet (alongside me) he is MUCH MUCH MUCH louder than me. He plays on a R13 with a 3.5 reed. Even when I'm playing above the break (B natural with all fingers down and above), it just doesnt cut through. It is not uncommon for me to not even be heard in videos recorded with smartphones when everyone is playing at the same time
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Author: donald
Date: 2021-12-07 13:48
Buddy Defranco gigged for years on a YCL 72, not much different from the 650. Don't know of you've heard of him but he knew how to play the clarinet. Andy Firth too, and Tony Coe. Lots of world class h azzers on "small bore" ("normal") clarinets.
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Author: pritishbudhrani
Date: 2021-12-07 14:41
I have indeed heard of Buddy DeFranco and that's cool. But I don't think Buddy DeFranco played with trumpets or trombones in his band....
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2021-12-07 14:51
Playing loud must be learned. If the alto sax player plays MUCH MUCH MUCH louder on clarinet than you then learn from him: what setup does he use and why, way of blowing, air support, everything. And then practice, practice, practice...
Post Edited (2021-12-07 14:55)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-12-07 16:47
I've tried playing loud on my clarinet and it does work, but then people immediately say "Why are you doing that!?" and glare at me, and I have to stop again.
Is there any chance that you could quieten down the loud ones? I imagine the Uekele player isn't getting much of a look in either.
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Author: LFabian
Date: 2021-12-07 19:29
Yes, the Lakey is very brilliant, especially with a power or Rovner barrel. Of course a Moba with one of their open mpc will do the trick too but not outdoor.
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Author: pritishbudhrani
Date: 2021-12-08 00:36
I actually would rather not switch mouthpieces because the RS Berkeley Benny Goodman mouthpiece helps me achieve the sound I desire. I use a Backun Fatboy barrel so I have no idea why I'm not loud enough
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Author: vintschevski
Date: 2021-12-08 02:10
It's probably so obvious that nobody has yet mentioned this, but have you tried yourself playing your alto saxophonist's R13 with your mouthpiece-and-reed set-up? Then you could at least either confirm or rule out the Yamaha 650 as the problem.
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Author: super20dan
Date: 2021-12-08 02:37
i used the lakey with a deg power barrel and it had no trouble cutting tru the band. even those using mikes. sometimes you have to fight fire with fire. another trick i discovered is to use rico plastic cover reeds on clarinet. for certain will add brightness and power to your sound
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Author: vintschevski
Date: 2021-12-08 03:47
Pritish, I've now watched some of the videos that you play in. With respect, I think that you could easily play louder by simply trying to play louder!! It may not be your style, it looks like you prefer to be laid back, discreet, more lyrical than brash, but nonetheless you could push more air through that clarinet. The trumpeter/cornettist is always going to play loudly, but I didn't get the impression that the alto saxophonist or even the drummer played all that loudly. Perhaps you are a little intimidated by the exuberant energy of one or more of the other members of the band, perhaps a little intimidated by the naturally greater volume of some of those instruments, but I reckon you could keep up with a bit of push. Whether your mouthpiece and reed can adequately sustain extra push is up to you to determine, personally I really think going up a half-strength with your reed would help (and that might need a mouthpiece change, don't be dogmatic in ruling that out).
Best wishes! You've got the skills and in time you'll work out other issues.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2021-12-08 03:47
Buddy DeFranco fronted a reincarnation of the Glen Miller Band which was loaded with loud trumpets and trombones. He toured the country with this band, and was
quite audible in all the clarinet parts. Going back to the early days of New Orleans jazz, Johnny Dodds played a small-bore Albert system clarinet in bands with loud trumpet and trombone sidekicks, and you could hear him just fine. Today, Andy Firth (mentioned by Donald) easily makes himself heard on a small bore, very laid back design Buffet Tradition model. It is true that in the 1930s, Goodman and Shaw played large-bore Selmers, and, for most of his career, Pete Fountain in the 50s, 60s, 70s,and beyond, played a large bore Leblanc clarinet (derived from the Leblanc Dynamic H model). So great jazz players can be found using either. My guess is that you could put Sidney Bechet on anything from a tiny bore Selmer Recital to a huge bore Boosey and Hawkes 1010, and he would blaze out like at least one and a half trumpets on all of them.
Post Edited (2021-12-08 03:53)
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2021-12-08 21:17
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong...
People play too loud. I literally can't hear music at the volumes it's played at.
Maybe I exaggerate, but it seems to me that a lot of amateur brass players are incapable of playing any softer than F, and prefer eyeball popping FFFFF whenever possible. I've never seen an amateur set drummer that can play less then FFF. On the rare occasions that I've played on stage I thought my head would explode.
I have to believe that it was not always this way. In the 19-teens and 20s, and even through the 40s, they simply didn't have sound systems that could blast music so loud. People never heard music at insane volumes, so they didn't try to play that way (IMO). Even the drums were smaller. You had to hear the clarinets in those arrangements clearly, because that was the sound - and they had brass. How could you possibly hear an upright bass? They were not all playing FFF. The saxophone mouthpieces had large chambers and were not as loud. Today, you can always hear the clarinets in Wynton Marsalis' bands, but I don't see Victor Goines or whoever turning red. Back in the day I'm sure they were quite capable of projecting, but they prioritized playing musically. In old videos all the old Jazz guys tried to act cool, collected, and nonchalant. The Ellington clarinets look like they're going to fall asleep. Nobody seemed to think that busting a gut was a virtue.
I'm sure that Sydney Bechet was loud, but he was unusual.
- Matthew Simington
Post Edited (2021-12-08 21:37)
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Author: vintschevski
Date: 2021-12-09 01:38
Hi, Matthew! I agree with your comments. And I've been in some small venues, even tiny venues, where bands of whatever description still insist on having huge sound systems belt out their noise in a ridiculous way when they could be heard to better advantage without any amplification at all.
May I say, however, that while that is a general issue, it's not the issue for Pritish. To simplify, it's really about how to get a balance in a line-up of clarinet and other wind and brass instruments. One of the great things about the clarinet is how easy it is to play softly on it, and as you point out, playing softly can actually be quite difficult for brass players and, I believe, for saxophonists - it's just not so easy as on clarinet. So if you have a line-up of clarinet, alto sax, trumpet, trombone and drums, everybody needs to find a way for the clarinet to be heard. Yes, the other instruments need to be mindful of not being too loud all the time, so as to give the clarinet a decent chance, but the clarinettist also needs to project well enough to be heard in the mix. Playing "louder" doesn't necessarily mean trying to play "too loudly", it just means playing up enough to be heard in the context.
So I used the word "project" for the clarinet as the equipment can be significant - the clarinet itself, the choice of mouthpiece, even the barrel. Sometimes, though, it boils down to putting more air through the instrument to, well, play louder! It would be useful to listen to some videos of Pritish's band in order to judge better how the balance of instruments might be improved there, but I'll leave it to him, he might be too modest to suggest what to watch.
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