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 substitutes for cork on tenons
Author: ruben 
Date:   2021-11-07 22:01

Cork on tenons seems to make for the best seal between the different bodies of the clarinet, but isn't the best acoustic solution. Cork has damping effects that slows down the transmission of pressure waves. How about going back to thread as is used for period instruments?

rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com


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 Re: substitutes for cork on tenons
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2021-11-08 01:07

I'm not sure of that. There is a synthetic cork material that is bit less soft and pliable. When I switched over to that material from cork it made no difference at all. There should be transmission at the "shoulders" of the joints which touch all the time (except at the barrel usually pulled out to some degree and if you pull out at the middle).


If it is partially an "either/or" proposition of seal versus connectivity, I'd tend toward seal anyway since I've experienced too many instances over the years where seal in other areas (pads or even leaks at post drill points) made all the difference in the world.





..............Paul Aviles



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 Re: substitutes for cork on tenons
Author: Max S-D 
Date:   2021-11-08 01:08

I think I'd rather see tenons cut to fit o-rings in place of cork, like on Behn mouthpieces. It will never be the deciding factor for me, but after using a mouthpiece with o-rings, I do not want to go back to cork if I can help it. The low force required and positive tactile feedback provided in assembly combined with what feels like a very positive seal and dead easy serviceability (carry an extra o-ring in the case and swap it in if you need it) make me wonder why we even use cork at all anymore.

I've seen thread suggested and handled period instruments (recreations) on a couple of occasions and in those instances haven't had any objection to thread, but would thread require more frequent replacement than cork?

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 Re: substitutes for cork on tenons
Author: kdk 2017
Date:   2021-11-08 01:33

I have issues of my own with cork, but I've never thought of it as a sound damper where it's used on woodwind joints. How physically does cork affect the sound?

Karl

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 Re: substitutes for cork on tenons
Author: Burt 
Date:   2021-11-08 02:26

The clarinet is not supposed to vibrate, unlike a chime. If it did vibrate, the pitch would depend on the material, which it doesn't. It's the air column which vibrates.

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 Re: substitutes for cork on tenons
Author: Chris P 
Date:   2021-11-08 03:52

"Cork on tenons seems to make for the best seal between the different bodies of the clarinet, but isn't the best acoustic solution. Cork has damping effects that slows down the transmission of pressure waves."

Are you even serious?

Tell me and everyone else here exactly where the pressure waves are in a clarinet.

Chris.

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 Re: substitutes for cork on tenons
Author: clarnibass 
Date:   2021-11-08 09:28

Cork has many very significant advantages over O-rings.

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 Re: substitutes for cork on tenons
Author: kilo 
Date:   2021-11-08 16:33

Quote:


The clarinet is not supposed to vibrate, unlike a chime.


Thank you, Burt, for pointing this out. Some of the discussions about mouthpieces, barrels, and ligatures give one the impression that the whole instrument is a collection of vibrating components all working together to produce the finished sound. Playing an open "G", I almost hesitate to cover any toneholes with my big spatulate fingers for fear of deadening all the oscillations at work.

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 Re: substitutes for cork on tenons
Author: kdk 2017
Date:   2021-11-08 17:40

clarnibass wrote:

> Cork has many very significant advantages over O-rings.

I don't necessarily dispute this, but in your view what are some of the advantages?

Karl

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 Re: substitutes for cork on tenons
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2021-11-08 18:45

Just to "chime in" on vibrations, one can argue the the vibrations closest to the reed (the air column vibration initiator), the more those vibration DO INDEED make a contribution to the totality of the sound (ie a buzzier mouthpiece will give you overtones that make the sound carry further).





...............Paul Aviles



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 Re: substitutes for cork on tenons
Author: jdbassplayer 
Date:   2021-11-08 18:56

For one cork is more tolerant of imperfections. O-rings need a very smooth and round socket to seal which is not as much of a problem with cork. This is important on instruments made of wood. Also o-rings are not as forgiving as cork when it comes to dimensions. If you want to use an aftermarket bell on your clarinet that has o-rings the socket needs to be almost exactly the same size. With cork there is quite a bit of tolerance.

Another thing about o-rings I don't like, while they can theoretically last forever I find they tend not to last very long due to mechanical abrasion and stretching. This could be solved with thicker o-rings but then you quickly run out of space to cut the slot in the tenon without making it too thin.

And this may all be a moot point anyway, if cork has a "dampening effect" then why wouldn't silicone rubber or cotton? Both are relatively soft materials. if there was dampening wouldn't you notice a significant difference in response between when you had all of the joints pushed all of the way in vs when you pull the barrel out to tune? I know I don't.

-Jdbassplayer

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 Re: substitutes for cork on tenons
Author: ruben 
Date:   2021-11-09 01:16

well argued: yes, cotton and rubber also have a damping effect. By "damping effect" I mean a slowing down of transmission of vibrations from one body of the instrument to the other by absorbing them, which is what cork does.

rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com


Post Edited (2021-11-09 01:31)

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 Re: substitutes for cork on tenons
Author: Chris P 
Date:   2021-11-09 04:41

REALLY?

What a load of old guff!

Chris.

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 Re: substitutes for cork on tenons
Author: Steven Ocone 2017
Date:   2021-11-09 05:08

I'm not an expert on acoustics. I believe that playing a clarinet creates a standing wave in the bore. Vibrations don't start at the top and travel down. I suppose that the wood has some resonance that rings, corks, material of the body, etc. might dampen, but the instrument was designed with all of these parameters.

It can be illuminating to change parameters to see what the effect will be, but whether it is an improvement is very subjective.

Steven Ocone
Ann & Steve's Music

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 Re: substitutes for cork on tenons
Author: alanporter 
Date:   2021-11-09 05:45

Chris P........you have such poetic language !!!!!!! I love it !

tiaroa@shaw.ca

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 Re: substitutes for cork on tenons
Author: ebonite 
Date:   2021-11-09 15:52

Presumably we would want to reduce to a minimum any vibrations of the body, as these would remove energy from the standing wave of the air column. If so, dampening would actually be a good thing, no?
Disclaimer: I'm not an acoustician

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 Re: substitutes for cork on tenons
Author: Chris P 
Date:   2021-11-09 17:28

If you want the perfect clarinet, the entire instrument will have to be made from a single piece of wood with no joints from its integral mouthpiece through to the integral bell, as well as no toneholes, pillars, socket rings nor any keys.

That will produce the purest clarinet sound, only you'll be a bit limited to the notes it will produce, ie. the one fundamental, then maybe the 12th if you push it to make it overblow and maybe another note higher still if you make it squeak.

To get some range, you'd have to get several of all different lengths tuned to different notes and arrange them in a rack like a set of panpipes.

Chris.

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 Re: substitutes for cork on tenons
Author: smokindok 
Date:   2021-11-09 18:13

I am surprised that no one has mentioned the lefreQue, yet. This device will certainly solve the corked joint problem. For the ultimate in warm sound, I recommend the 24K solid gold model, for only 3,053.99 euros:

https://www.lefreque.com/


For those not in the market for snake oil, there is this:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/23150664_Influence_of_wall_vibrations_on_the_behavior_of_a_simplified_wind_instrument

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 Re: substitutes for cork on tenons
Author: ruben 
Date:   2021-11-09 18:27

This exists! It's called the didjeridoo.

rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com


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 Re: substitutes for cork on tenons
Author: jdbassplayer 
Date:   2021-11-09 18:35

smokindok wrote:

> I am surprised that no one has mentioned the lefreQue, yet.
> This device will certainly solve the corked joint problem. For
> the ultimate in warm sound, I recommend the 24K solid gold
> model, for only 3,053.99 euros:
>
> https://www.lefreque.com/
>

It was only a matter of time. You're lucky this is a clarinet forum, for some reason I've noticed a lot of flute players swear by their Lefreque and will come to their defense if anything negative is said about them. This is of course despite the fact that flute tenons are all metal on metal...

I think we need to focus our efforts on scientifically grounded improvements before we start worrying about the dampening effects of this or that material. For example, why has nobody made a Bb clarinet with a fully automatic double register vent mechanism? This would solve many problems like wide 12ths and response in the upper register in addition to the stuffy throat Bb while being not that much more complicated than the low F correction mechanism you see on some high end clarinets.

-Jdbassplayer

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 Re: substitutes for cork on tenons
Author: seabreeze 
Date:   2021-11-09 21:59

"Why has nobody made a clarinet with a fully automatic double register vent mechanism?" The Brazilian company, Devon & Burgoni, had a model a few years ago with a double register vent mechanism. They moved to Portugal and may have gone out of business though. Now the Royal Global Firebird model clarinet
that B. Corbin (Hawaii) carries has a double register vent. https://www.mmimports.com/product/royal-global-firebird-standard-rose-gold-bb-clarinet/

Is the vent you have in mind something different from these or different from the old Stubbins S-K mechanism that some Leblanc clarinets had or the Mazzeo system?



Post Edited (2021-11-09 22:00)

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 Re: substitutes for cork on tenons
Author: Chris P 
Date:   2021-11-09 22:19

That's not a double speaker mechanism - it's a basic improved throat Bb vent and opens along with the speaker key while the left thumb is off the thumb ring.

Chris.

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 Re: substitutes for cork on tenons
Author: jdbassplayer 
Date:   2021-11-09 22:25

None of those are double register vent mechanisms. Those are just a single vent with an extra tone hole to improve throat Bb. A true double register vent mechanism would have 2 separate register tubes that each cover a portion of the upper register. It would be like the difference between the mechanism of a Bundy bass clarinet and the professional model Selmer bass clarinet.

I'm hoping to build a prototype someday, but it would definitely be a very complicated project so I haven't had the time.

-Jdbassplayer

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 Re: substitutes for cork on tenons
Author: ebonite 
Date:   2021-11-09 22:29

Did the "Marchi" system include an automatic double register mechanism?

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 Re: substitutes for cork on tenons
Author: seabreeze 
Date:   2021-11-09 23:03

Thanks for the clarification of the difference between an alternate/improved Bb mechanism and a true double vent mechanism. Matters are not helped by the language currently used in ads--Sellers of the Royal Global Firebird clarinet say in public ads that the instrument has a double vent mechanism. To reach the public, how would you advertise a clarinet that really does have a true double vent mechanism without creating ill will? (People will say, "We've already got one of those.") Would it be best to come up with another name for the device?



Post Edited (2021-11-09 23:10)

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 Re: substitutes for cork on tenons
Author: jdbassplayer 
Date:   2021-11-09 23:16

Well calling it a double vent mechanism or double register mechanism is fairly accurate as there are 2 vents and it does replace the register key. What I am referring to is a "double register vent mechanism" as there are 2 register vents. Confusing I know but there really isn't a better name and it's not clear who invented it so we can't name it after its inventor.

In any case this thread is now very off topic so I will start a new one.

-Jdbassplayer

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 Re: substitutes for cork on tenons
Author: Chris P 
Date:   2021-11-09 23:57

The Marchi system had an extra speaker vent in the barrel controlled by a complex mechanism and used a piggyback-style pad cups with a small aperture in the perforated lower pad cup, similar to the open C# vent seen on MkVI and Yanagisawa soprano saxes or the trill keys on some Fossati oboes. Both vent keys were open for the lower part of the altissimo then the lower vent key closed down leaving a smaller aperture in the centre of it for the upper part. This mechanism put everything up three 8ves from the fundamental and using the same fingerings as the low register.

Chris.

Post Edited (2021-11-09 23:58)

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 Re: substitutes for cork on tenons
Author: LFabian 
Date:   2021-11-11 07:42

The Thom Wanne Gaia 3 is a new mouthpiece that uses O rings. Can I get some opinions on it?

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 Re: substitutes for cork on tenons
Author: Chris P 
Date:   2021-11-11 12:03

Lyons plastic C clarinets were also furnished with O rings on both the mouthpiece and bell tenons. It's not a new thing.

Chris.

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