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Author: Sarton 
Date:   2021-09-15 16:10
Attachment:  _57.1.jpg (14k)

On the upper and lower part of a normal Bb clarinet we find in a row the 6 tone holes that are operated by the fingers of the right hand and left hand 2 3 4 .
In addition to these, there are 2 small tone holes, of which the shape of the covers suggests that they are only operated by the rings of the other tone holes and not by the fingers.
Recently I bought an older Amati Eb clarinet to give it a try, just for fun.
The upper and lower parts of this clarinet are made from one piece of wood.
I was surprised to see that the shape of the covers on the small tone holes does suggest that they can also be operated with the fingers in addition to the rings.
I could not find any information about this in the fingering chart for the Boehm system.
Perhaps one of the forum members can provide more information on this.
I am attaching a photo of the clarinet.

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 Re: Toneholes
Author: jdbassplayer 
Date:   2021-09-15 17:19

Those are just rounded pad cups like you might see on a piccolo. You could theoretically use them as touch pieces to play Eb/Bb or B/F# but the notes would probably be a bit sharp. There’s really no need to as you can already close these pad cups with any of the right hand fingers.


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 Re: Toneholes
Author: Sarton 
Date:   2021-09-15 18:53

Yes, thank you for your quick response.
I had already thought something like this, but I wonder is this exceptional or do you see this more often with Boehm clarinets?

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 Re: Toneholes
Author: Chris P 
Date:   2021-09-15 22:38
Attachment:  P5020001 (1).JPG (719k)

Amati also did that on their entry level clarinets (Corton, Lafleur, B&H 400 etc.) back in the '70s through to the '90s which had a flute-style pad cup for the LH2 and RH ring keys - it was the same style pad cup you'd see on the trill keys and LH1 key on most flutes which had a dished centre with a groove running around it.

B&H 1010 and Peter Eaton clarinets also have domed pad cups with Y arms for LH1 (open G vent) and LH2 (E/B vent) instead of the usual pointed cup arm to the key rod or barrel.

Sometimes this is done to gain extra room, especially on the LH1 pad cup which is tucked under the throat A touch as that keeps the height down to prevent the underside of the throat A touch clattering against it.

Selmer use oboe-style domed pad cups for the LH1 pad cup (for the open G vent), but Buffet still use the traditional pad cup and arm and there's not a lot of room between it and the underside of the throat A touchpiece. Provided a thin pad was used in the LH1 pad cup, there's no danger of the throat A key clattering against it.

Other times this is done for comfort if the pad cups are in close proximity to the ring keys or it's done purely as a cosmetic thing.

I recently serviced a set of Schwenk & Seggelke 3000 clarinets (see attachment) where the E/B vent pad cup connected to the LH3 ring key (as part of the LH forked Eb/Bb mechanism) also had a domed pad cup instead of the usual style pad cups. The pad cup and arm are cast as a single piece instead of a separate pad cup soldered to a Y arm, then soldered to the key rod. That way there's fewer solder joints in close proximity to each other.

And then there were the DDR-era G.R.Uebel clarinets and others where the pad cups and arms were formed from a single piece of sheet metal with the pad cup milled out on the underside, so they all had a smooth flat top to them and that gave them a very utilitarian look.



Post Edited (2021-09-15 22:53)

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 Re: Toneholes
Author: Sarton 
Date:   2021-09-16 16:38

Thanks Chris for the extensive and interesting information.

It strikes me that when using these valves the tones Eb/Bb or B/F# hardly deviate from those when using the normal fingering.

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 Re: Toneholes
Author: Sarton 
Date:   2021-09-17 14:48

By the way, have you folks ever seen a ligature as shown on my above picture,
having a large nut on the lower side.

Post Edited (2021-09-17 15:47)

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 Re: Toneholes
Author: donald 
Date:   2021-09-17 16:01

re Ligature- an English company made something similar, I think the company was called "ROC". A number of them got brought into NZ years and years back (1960s ir 70s?) and I've managed to accumulate one for clarinet and one for Tenor Sax... pretty similar design. They play OK but nothing special. You can turn them so the big square bit next to the adjustment knob is on top of the mouthpiece

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 Re: Toneholes
Author: Chris P 
Date:   2021-09-17 18:33

Just a few pointers on woodwind terminology:

Toneholes are the holes drilled in the joints through to the bore where notes issue from and are either closed directly by the fingers (and left thumb) or operated by keys and closed by pads which are physically out of reach of the fingers or too large for the fingers to successfully cover.

Pad cups are the cups where the pads are glued into.

Woodwind instruments don't use valves as valves are used for diverting airflow between sections of tubing and are mostly found on brass instruments.

Woodwind keys usually have the following parts - a touchpiece or a ring key which is operated by the fingers, that in turn is connected to an arm connecting it to a key barrel (hollow and mounted on a rod screw) or key rod (solid and mounted between point or pivot screws at either end).

There's some form of springing, either using a needle spring which is normally mounted in a hole drilled through the pillar or by a flat spring screwed to the underside of the key arm (usually on lever keys).

The pad cup is mounted to an arm which is in turn soldered to the key barrel or rod to form a solid and reliable key.

Lever keys have a long arm with a pad cup at one end and a touchpiece at the other and are mounted like a see-saw and usually have a flat spring screwed to the underside to provide the closing or opening force depending how they're sprung.

Open standing keys are where the pads are raised off their toneholes and are closed by the fingers, whereas closed standing keys are sprung to remain closed at all times, until they're opened by the touchpiece on the opposite side of the pad cup.


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 Re: Toneholes
Author: Sarton 
Date:   2021-09-17 19:06

OK, thanks a lot !

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