 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2021-03-28 23:45
What is the actual reed movement during its’ vibration? Just curious. Do both corners of the tip hit simultaneously and then gradually close to the center of the tip rail?
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Bill_D
Date: 2021-03-29 15:21
I think you are asking if the reed motion is along the narrow dimension of the reed tip. It is not. It is along the long axis of the reed, like a diving board. The following YouTube video shows the concept, but is not the best representation of reed vibration.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x575hmqVfq8
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2021-03-29 16:45
From what I have read, the reed does not touch the tip rail at softer volumes. At loud volumes, I think it would contact at the corners first of the facing has a slight arc to it all the way to the tip.
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2021-03-29 23:35
As I visualize the reed bending towards the tip of the mpc, when it hits the very end of the side rail, it's actually hitting the entire tip rail at the same time. I cannot conceive of any need for a slight dip in the tip so that the reed would hit the ends of the tip rail first and then continue down towards the center. To me that simply doesn't make any sense. The tip rail is actually an extension of the facing.
https://www.foglietta.de/com/clarinet-mouthpiece/detailed_knowledge.htm
(Scroll down to "The tip rail")
I believe the article is basically restating what I wrote above.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2021-03-30 00:07
I read this to say the reed closes from the sides to the center of the tip.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2021-03-30 00:48
After rereading the article, yes it does say that. However that still doesn't really make sense to me. Is so, how deep should the "dip" be on the top of the tip rail? I've never read or heard of a "dip" in the top portion of the tip rail.
From the following article by Clark Fobes, he states that the tip opening is measured from the flat portion of the mouthpiece tip. One thing I noticed is that he didn't say "from the center of the mouthpiece".
http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/Equipment/MBL/Mouthpiece.html
(Scroll down to tip opening, III section, #6)
I have an email off to Brad. I hope to hear from him.
p.s. If I'm wrong...it wouldn't be the first time!
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Author: Brad Behn
Date: 2021-03-30 02:33
Many machine made mouthpiece tips are dished. That's a result of how they are machined. Five axis machines can produce well rendered facings without dishing the tip rail, or if a 3 axis machine is used, a different method of cutting the facing would be required to properly render a dish-less tip rail. D'Addario mouthpieces aren't dished, whereas ALL Vandoren mouthpieces are. Zinner facings were dished, etc.
It is also worth mentioning that as the facing gets bigger, the dish-effect increases proportionately.. So a Vandoren B45 has a larger dip than an M13 by comparison.
Incidentally, you might be curious what dishing the tip rail actually does to the playing experience. Well, it makes the instrument play with a reduction in resonance and response - all other things being equal.
Brad Behn
http://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2021-03-30 02:46
Hmmm, looks as if Brad and I were writing at the same time.
So, there's no need for my theoretical assumptions.
Good question, Arnoldstang!
Post Edited (2021-03-30 02:52)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2021-03-30 04:27
Brad Behn wrote:
> Many machine made mouthpiece tips are dished. That's a result
> of how they are machined.
So, Brad, is this "dished" tip figured into - a deliberate part of - the design, since the machining will cause it to happen anyway? Or is it a flaw mouthpiece (or blank) designers just live with?
In other words, do mouthpiece designers who know their work will be produced on machines that dish the tips try to compensate in any way, or do they create the design as though the tip would be straight and hope the result will be acceptable?
Does *skilled* hand-(re)facing eliminate the dip?
Karl
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Author: donald
Date: 2021-03-30 07:02
I have 2 M30Ds, one "as is" from the factory (but hand picked by my wife when she was in Paris). The other one has has the "tip dish" removed, with only the slightest change to other dimensions. The adjusted one plays with a much clearer tone, projects better and has a more focused shape in the lower register.
The tip dish provides a sort of cushioning effect - the mouthpiece is more tolerant of softer reeds(ie less inclined to shrillness, but also less resonant) and a thicker duller sound that some people describe as darker.
I can of course get good results from both, and use both regularly, but it was quite amazing the difference this slight adjustment made.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2021-03-30 07:42
donald, would you be willing to post close up pictures of the tip rails of your two M30Ds?
I really would like to see the difference in the two.
Thanks.
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2021-03-30 17:34
There is no special tip rail dishing operation that I know of. It is just how the facing curve extends to the very tip. If it still has a curve to it, then the very tip will be slightly farther from the reed than the corners. If the facing curve is totally flat near the tip, then the entire tip rail will be on the same plane.
On sax mouthpieces, a flat facing near the tip has poor altissimo response. On clarinet, it does not seem to be the same effect.
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2021-03-30 20:40
Mojo, so if the refacer slowly draws the mpc towards the very tip as an extension of the facing arc wherein the tenon end of the mouthpiece is continually being lifted away from the sandpaper, won't there be a slight longitudinal "dip" due to the natural tip roundness (or tip extension) to accommodate the shape of the reed?
I've always read that when you get real close to the tip rail, to stop lifting the end of the mpc so that the tip and a very slight segment of the end of the side rail will be perfectly flat. To my knowledge, this would prevent any kind of longitudinal dip.
Thoughts?
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2021-03-31 05:59
Many years ago I wrote a short article advocating straight tips for clarinet and sax reeds.
Why are oboe and bassoon reed tips straight? The interior of the clarinet mouthpiece in the baffle area(side to side) is not flat. As a result the tip
rail at each side of the mouthpiece finishes it curve before the center of the tip. What would happen if the baffle area gradually flattened side to side so the corners finished their curve at the same time as the center producing a straight tip mouthpiece and reed?
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: donald
Date: 2021-03-31 09:07
You don't think that hasn't already been tried and rejected? The more complex solution has evolved because it gives better results, trust me.
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2021-03-31 17:12
Mojo, so if the refacer slowly draws the mpc towards the very tip as an extension of the facing arc wherein the tenon end of the mouthpiece is continually being lifted away from the sandpaper, won't there be a slight longitudinal "dip" due to the natural tip roundness (or tip extension) to accommodate the shape of the reed?
***************((**(*(
Yes this is what I was trying to say happens. It happens with most machine and hand facings. But there is usually not a special effort to make it more pronounced. Nor is it a defect that needs to be prevented IMO.
There was an era of Gold plated brass Ponzol sax mouthpieces that had an exaggerated dip in the tip rail. With refacing, the corners always cleaned up before the center of the tip rail. I felt they played stuffy as originally faced.
I sometimes flip the facing to have slightly more curve in the tip rail area on sax facings. It helps with high altissimo response. But the goal is not to dish out the tip rail though I suppose it does that. The result is different than what I observed on those Ponzols.
The flip I sometimes use was inspired by what I saw on some Lakey sax mouthpieces that had good altissimo response. But the Lakeys had 10X more flip than was needed and had an airy sound in the normal range. I found this out by gradually reducing the flip in a Lakey until the tone cleared up but the altissimo was still good.
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: JTJC
Date: 2021-03-31 19:35
The disc-cutting of lays on Vandoren etc mouthpieces (perhaps not the new BD5s which appear CNCed) leaves a dip in the tip rail. So does it also create rail tilt? If that is the case what effect will the tilt have, as its over the whole length of the side rails?
I’d have though it must be possible to flatten out the disc itself at the start or end of the cut (depending which end of the lay the cut starts at) so the disc was at the necessary angle for a flat tip rail. Maybe a step too far for the price of these mouthpieces.
Given the dip in the tip rail does have an effect, I’d love to know whether all the top players who apparently use B40, 5RV etc have had those hand finished to remove the dip and perhaps other imperfections.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2021-03-31 21:36
JTJC stated: "The disc-cutting of lays on Vandoren etc mouthpieces (perhaps not the new BD5s which appear CNCed) leaves a dip in the tip rail. So does it also create rail tilt? If that is the case what effect will the tilt have, as its over the whole length of the side rails?"
If the cutting is going to continue "the facing curve" past the tip of the mpc, I believe that not only will there be an unintentional, longitudinal dip on the tip rail but also a "rail tilt" angling outward. (I'm glad you brought that up!) Again, from my readings, some facings actually have a steeper curve at the end of the mpc which, if I remember correctly, is supposed to help in the altissimo range. Now, how this can be done without creating the dip as well as the downward, outward tilt...I have no idea. However, your mentioning of flattening the cutting disc seems plausible.
To simply state what I've learned so far: it appears that different mpc facing machines produce different "qualities" of facings.
I believe this thread could be very important to anyone looking for a new mouthpiece.
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Author: Brad Behn
Date: 2021-03-31 22:56
Yes there is rail-tilt embedded in the facings of all Vandoren mouthpieces. Furthermore, dishing grows more severe as tip openings increase. This is all due to the manor in which the facings are applied.
Mouthpieces by Babbitt and D'Addario are cut differently and don't illustrate the dish-effect. They tend however to lack a true double-axis concavity on the table.
Some players - who prefer a mellower sound like the dish, whereas players seeking a crisper resonance prefer non-dished rails. But since most players simply don't have knowledge of what "could be" they simply don't seek dish-less verses dished facings. They just want it to "play".
I believe this conversation has long been absent from the clarinet mouthpiece world and thank you to those of you who have interest in these wonderful details.
Karl wrote: "So, Brad, is this "dished" tip figured into - a deliberate part of - the design, since the machining will cause it to happen anyway? Or is it a flaw mouthpiece (or blank) designers just live with?
In other words, do mouthpiece designers who know their work will be produced on machines that dish the tips try to compensate in any way, or do they create the design as though the tip would be straight and hope the result will be acceptable?
Does *skilled* hand-(re)facing eliminate the dip?
Karl"
I believe most makers have come to implement their designs and facing architecture around their manufacturing process. So once they have fully developed how they face their mouthpieces, they are unlikely to change, and subsequent design changes are sympathetic to the confinements of production.
I've personally found that by cutting my mouthpiece facings in such a way as to provide both a subtle table concavity - on both axis, AND to produce a dish-less tip rail is the best path, producing the best results. It took the added expense of 5 Axis CNC machining, AND complex software applications to enable that functionality. But it is worth it.
Brad Behn
http://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com
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The Clarinet Pages
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