 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: puddingpoo
Date: 2021-03-18 05:24
EXTREMELY URGENT!!!!!! there are only 7 practices left to our big biannual band festival that's held nationwide where I'm from (will keep it confidential in case people I know find this). I have been focusing solely on the weaker players but they've completely lost motivation + the pressure by the conductor is pushing them as well. We're playing And Then The Ocean Glows by Satoshi Yagisawa which has lots of running notes (99% chromatics, 1% scalic). My methods of training their running notes arent too bad since they can get it down during sectionals, but once they have combined with the whole band or when it's the next day, everything falls apart and we'd have to practise from square one. Apparently that happens to them when they're practising at home too.
It got so bad that both of my clarinetists skipped a practice yesterday because they felt so terrible about themselves and didn't enjoy band anymore. I still have hope for one of them since she still wants attendance points, but it's certainly not right that a musician should force music out of themselves. They should be enjoying the playing. There are parts that are nice due to my conductor's added interpretations, but that was during the practice that they had skipped. I think i'd work a bit more with them on the difficult slow parts so that they'd hate the piece less but eventually we'd still have to practice the running notes.
Tldr; are there any ways to solve this problem of completely losing the hang of the running notes that you've spent so long practising? any ways to make sure you dont forget the feeling the following day after you've solved the running notes?
Edit: clearer details
Post Edited (2021-03-18 08:49)
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2021-03-18 06:35
"running notes" is a bit vague.
Scale notes?
Difficult fingerings fast?
Spent so long practicing and still can't play it?
Nobody can play them?
Why is the piece being used?
We probably can't help much at this point.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2021-03-18 06:48
puddingpoo wrote:
> they can get it down during sectionals, but once
> they have combined with the whole band or after the next day,
> everything falls apart and we'd have to practise from square
> one.
>
>Tldr; are there any ways to solve this problem of completely
> losing the hang of the running notes that you've spent so long
> practising? any ways to make sure you dont forget the feeling
> the following day after you've solved the running notes?
The simplest answer will disappoint you and not please your section mates, either. The passages need to be practiced, probably much more than the guided practice you have time for during your sectional rehearsals. Repetition is part of the answer. But the repetition needs to be done in a systematic and deliberate way. There are a number of techniques that can help.
I write the following not knowing "And Then The Ocean Glows" or what exactly these "running notes" involve.
For me the first part of learning passages of "running notes" is to analyze the runs to see if they match patterns I've already learned. Are they scales? Arpeggios? Chromatic scale? If I already know the basic pattern, it's easier to learn them in the context of the piece.
Another technique is to take short sections of the passage and learn each one separately, then start to assemble the sections - put two of them together and get that smooth, then add another passage either before or after the part just practiced. I try to start with the last short section and then add a few notes that go before it, then a few more notes before that, going backward through the passage and playing to the end of the passage each time.
Needless to say, this takes time spent each day. It takes patience. It means practicing at home between the sectionals you have at school.
I'm assuming you can play these runs and are tying to help the others to manage them. But keep at the front of your mind that you can't play these runs for them - they have to put in the work. Or you, they and your conductor may want to figure out easier things for them to play in place of the actual notes so they can relax and enjoy the rest of the piece. Sometimes the running notes don't really matter so much when there's more important music going on at the same time.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-03-18 06:51
Ok, one might say that a grade 5 piece is going to treacherous no matter what.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YaG1C-LaDc
I'd try this: The running notes are just the sounds of the waves......the actual notes you hit are less important than hitting "peaks" and backing off volume wise. So you are looking for an effect, NOT precision (certainly at this point). The REAL important parts are the nice long clarinet notes at the top, the melody at the end, and the little noodles under that melody in the final bars.
Just let them play and have fun........if they're still up for it.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2021-03-18 10:03
Karl and Paul gave some good pointers.
It's "sound effects". It looks like it's mostly 16th note chromatic runs. There are also some triplet over eighth "swells". FWIW 2nd and 3rd part are usually harder than 1st.
The hard part about sound effects is keeping together. It's much harder in band than in section. This can be made worse if the conductor isn't keeping clear time, or if the rest of the band isn't together.
It sounds to me that they feel like they are being pushed to hard. If some of your members are so stressed that they skip practice there is a problem. (They should show up anyhow, but you know what I mean.) A little stress can be good, but too much will cause them to freeze up and perform poorly.
You could suggest that the section individually practice 16th note chromatic scales at a very SLOW TEMPO everyday with a metronome, much slower than performance speed, without worrying too much about the concert. Especially going up and down over the break, like from low C (xxx|ooo) up to long C (xxx|xxx x). Then, practicing from low Bb (xxx|xoo) to high Bb (xxo|_ooo). Make sure they know the easiest fingerings. If they have the chromatic scale under their fingers they can focus on playing together.
Tell them that idea is not to slow down and then gradually speed up. The idea is that your brain only learns it if you do it slowly and correctly. If you can play it slow, smoothly, and accurately, speeding up is easy. If you do it fast and inaccurately you are practicing how to do it wrong.
- Matthew Simington
Post Edited (2021-03-18 11:19)
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Author: puddingpoo
Date: 2021-03-18 12:05
hello! currently very very busy so im unable to give comprehensive replies even though im EXTREMELY grateful that everyone here is so kind in giving such great advice and spending time to type out long replies for this. I really appreciated you sharing that tidbit about your experience in a community band and about nodame cantabile. It really was somewhat touching, but it is a shame that you edited out that part :( Seriously, thank you so much for the advice though, I appreciate it a lot.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-03-18 17:40
One other thing
Matthew mentions that the conductor needs to be clear about about time. What makes things worse in these situations is that the natural tendency (and best practice.....for really good ensembles) is to conduct the slower, broad pulses rather than the fast quarter note rhythm. BUT, this is only going to throw your fast note folks into confusion trying to place their fast beats within broad strokes..............I assume this is what is happening. It's the sort of thing that makes the end of Wagner's Tannhauser Overture so challenging (for violins in the original version or clarinets in the band transcription).
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: puddingpoo
Date: 2021-03-19 07:41
Hi Paul!
I really do thank you for your responses so far. You bring up many interesting points. I don't think it's the conducting problem though coz for the bulk of our runs, my conductor conducts in 4 4 instead of "halving" it and conducting in 2 4 (which im guessing is what you meant). I think the problem might be from the way we practise? Since all of us practise with metronomes and I would clap the tempo for them when it's sectionals, it's possible that my sectionmates might just be too used to the clapping and the metronome to adapt to the conducting? At least that is what i suspect. Besides watching the conductor, sometimes listening to other sections helps give the tempo too, so i might try to get them to practise some clapping or counting while watching me conduct so that their internal pulse would be better, or even get my third sectionmate to just play on all the on beats to give them a tempo instead of me clapping for them. Just a few ideas. What do you think?
- puddingpoo
Post Edited (2021-03-19 07:56)
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Author: puddingpoo
Date: 2021-03-19 07:47
Hi Karl!
Thank you for your help :-) Thankfully our section does apply those techniques with practising, and i think your pointer about bringing this problem up to my conductor and modifying their part is quite helpful. I will consider that! Thank you so much for your time
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2021-03-19 07:56
Maybe "beat to beat" practicing would help. I need staff paper to illustrate, but it kinda goes like it sounds.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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Author: puddingpoo
Date: 2021-03-19 08:01
Hello Tom,
Might you mean practising in sets where you for example have 1e+a 2e+a 3e+a 4e+a and you split it so that you're practising 1e+a 2 first and then adding on 1e+a 2e+a 3 and so on?
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2021-03-19 17:01
Take each group of sixteenths alone but add the next note. 5-note chunk practicing is the way I like to recommend this. Then do 2 groups of sixteenths plus the next note, becoming a 9-note chunk.
Slow at first, but repeat each 5 or 9 note chunk AT LEAST 5 times before moving to the next one. Each of those repetitions should focus on making it a group of notes instead of 5 or 9 distinct notes.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-03-19 20:05
I mean something LESS accurate.
I am just looking at the score in the video but take meas. 44 for example. For some reason the 3rds start the gobbledigook.......great. Listening to the alto saxophones who do the same thing helps, but: Start the chromatic and make sure they pause on beat three before "going back in." Then just keep playing chromatic (again the exact note are not so important) getting louder until they hit meas. 47. This is a landing point. So think of it as going from beat three of 44 to beat one of 47. Try to hit the right note at 47 and start backing off the volume...........and keep going like that.
Again, it is the GESTURE that is more important (rolling waves) rather than the individual sixteenth note at any given point.
And if you're going into a performance soon, the most important part of all is to just trust your instincts, use what you have, and ENJOY the experience of playing together.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2021-03-20 07:44
puddingpoo-- Yes, exactly. Of course it may not be a group of all 16ths, could be mixed rhythms. But yes, you play what's in beat 1 and end on the first note of beat 2, then play 1 and 2 and end on first beat of 3, etc.
Then to finish off, you practice the end of the phrase separately since over time you have practiced that part less with the beat to beat.
Katrina explains it another way, but same idea.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
Post Edited (2021-03-20 07:47)
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2021-03-20 17:03
This is all looking a bit hoaky. Why is someone this advanced asking these elementary questions?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-03-20 21:25
Not wonky at all. You can be (and probably are) more detail minded and miss the forest for the trees.
Ensemble performance practice is an entirely different skill set. Trust me, many great musicians make HORRIBLE conductors.
Don't get me started on conductors
................Paul Aviles
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Author: puddingpoo
Date: 2021-03-21 11:59
Hello Ken,
Nah I don't have any reason to make all this up. Doesn't make sense for me to do so anyway. I mentioned earlier that my techniques for solving runs were mostly pretty okay, and my sectionmates could get it down during sectionals but not when we come together as a whole band. My question in this forum here is just asking for any ways to make sure that my sectionmates wouldn't forget how to play once we play as a whole band and not just as a section.
So far what I've picked up from the responses is that at this point in time when we're so close to the performance, I shouldn't make the main focus to be accuracy of all the individual notes and such, but actually focusing on the important parts of the runs. This was something at the back of my mind that I almost kinda forgot. So someone like me does make mistakes too.
Paul makes a good point. Individual practice is different from ensemble practice.
- puddingpoo
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2021-03-21 19:16
If the problem is sectionals being different from ensemble, you could conduct the sectionals (if you're not already) to get them used to being conducted. Except you'd think they're used to watching a conductor if they're band members already.
You could also suggest they practice the passages along with the recording at home. Or you could practice the passages in the sectionals along with the recording.
If instead the problem is retaining the technique, then maybe suggest the following. It helps me when I remember to do it, though I'm not smart enough to consistently remember it. When something goes right or gets better in practice, stop and "take a snapshot" of the neuromuscular sequence that just worked, and repeat it, trying to nail it down. Explicitly tell yourself to remember it. The next morning on awakening, before getting up, try to recall the thing(s) you told yourself to remember, the whole context and feel of each one. In the next practice, before repeating them, again try to recall the thing(s), the entirety of their context and feel from the previous day, then try to repeat the same neuromuscular sequence. I wish I did this more consistently; one gets better at it with, ah, practice.
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2021-03-22 01:10
Along the lines of what you say about focusing on the important parts of the run--- It's maybe a cop-out, but with really hard stuff our conductor does the following--
We have some very good amateurs and students (college mostly, but the odd H.S. one). Sometimes he says "maybe professionals only on this spot, unless you're sure you can play it neatly". Sometimes he limits playing to the first two chairs of each section. Sometimes he advises that if you can't play it all, play the first couple of notes of each beat, but keep counting correctly-- this works especially well with a long staccato passage.
These may be things to consider since the performance is coming up soon. Better to trim down a bit than to have a mess.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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Author: puddingpoo
Date: 2021-03-28 15:36
Hi Tom,
Update: I asked to make changes in reducing some running notes parts or even staggering them between my two section mates but it was kindly rejected since our band is pretty small this time with only 7 woodwinds, so the volume of the running notes is really important in this case. Oh well, worth the try anyway. I think both of them are improving at least so it's not too bad :-)
- puddingpoo
Post Edited (2021-03-28 15:36)
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