 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2020-10-17 22:14
Hi,
I wondered if anyone had tried playing with an accompanist over zoom or Skype during a lesson? My clarinet teacher plays the piano really beautifully and I miss the sound of him playing while I play my clarinet. I wondered if it might work if we both play during my Skype lessons, or if the delay on the line will cause chaos?
Jen
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Author: crvsp
Date: 2020-10-17 23:00
It unfortunately would cause chaos. I know that there are some softwares that allow you to get (decent) latency like Jamulus, and I also know that SFCM is implementing a new system that lets musicians play over zoom without any latency issues. There's probably more software that lets you do this kind of stuff, and for now I would recommend you get an ethernet cable to hook up to your computer. For Jamulus.
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2020-10-18 01:42
Without getting into the weeds with cutting-edge technology you have two easier options:
1) Your teacher can play accompaniments for you during lessons, but he'll have to mute you on his end so that the delay does not make it chaotic for him. You'll then need to be able to comment about how it went, which can be a valuable exercise for a student, but is still less than ideal as an ongoing practice.
2) Your teacher could pre-record an accompaniment for you that you could play from a speaker on your end during your lesson. Then you'd be able to get feedback on your performance.
Making a recording of your performance with the recorded accompaniment and sending it to him would be a variation on option 2.
I've used all these methods in my teaching these last months and they've all been helpful.
Anders
Post Edited (2020-10-18 01:46)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2020-10-18 16:54
Thanks nellsonic,
I have a recorded accompaniment but I find it really tricky trying to stay in time with it. My teacher usually stays in time with me while I sort of battle along. It's hilarious how badly it goes wrong if I try to follow the piano. :-)
I've also got recordings of the duet and I'm playing along with that at the moment so I can get the feeling of what the accompaniment is meant to sound like when I am at a given place in the music. I find that is really helpful and I'm hoping that at some point I will be able to manage just the piano recording. It's very different though from just being in a room with my teacher.
Jen
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2020-10-18 17:13
SunnyDaze wrote:
> I have a recorded accompaniment but I find it really tricky
> trying to stay in time with it. My teacher usually stays in
> time with me while I sort of battle along. It's hilarious how
> badly it goes wrong if I try to follow the piano. :-)
>
If your accompaniment recording is in a digital format on a computer, you can play it back with software that can slow it down. As you get stronger with your part, you can begin to speed it back up. Of course, unless you're using something like SmartMusic that's programmed to follow you, tempo nuances and changes will still be out of your control, but at least keeping up might be easier.
I have a student who practices duets this way with the recordings that came with the duet book.
Karl
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Author: LGS316217
Date: 2020-10-18 20:07
SoundJack? Older platform that, according to this article, can be adjusted to eliminate delay.
https://www.wbur.org/artery/2020/10/16/1990s-tech-helping-musicians-collaborate-apart?fbclid=IwAR33SpcwiIXYndtXWpcyhaiUMzAiy5wWkeC2Y_RVgQzfb49evhVFSKV2k7Y
Amy Paul
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Author: LFabian
Date: 2020-10-20 02:34
Would both of you have to acclimate together live? There would be no need for microphones anymore. I would think it would be easier.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2020-10-25 18:48
Hi Jen:
While I appreciate that the scope of your question was just two software programs: Zoom and Skype, allow me to suggest use of JamKazam; which is free.
Although it was necessary for me to buy an $85 microphone and direct connect my PC to my router via an RJ45 cable (no WiFi here as less latency arises with a hard wired internet connection) we are able to reasonably (low and manageable latency) get 8+ people playing simultaneously; so I imagine just you and an accompanist would be fine.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001R747SG?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_dt_b_asin_title
Post Edited (2020-10-25 19:41)
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2020-10-25 19:13
I suggest that the teacher plays with you in a lesson and does not follow you, You need to learn how to follow another player.
In life, a player who cannot follow others will have a limited ability to play with others. It seems you are not hearing a 'beat'. Maybe you can start with the teacher and you both following a metronome beat so you can eventually learn to hear the beat in music without the metronome. Ask your teacher to help you with this problem. That is what teachers are for.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2020-10-25 19:50
Hi Ken:
You offer sagely advise for in person musical play: no doubt.
But please appreciate, if you don't, that the very metronome that you propose, regardless of what end of the digital connection it resides on, is itself subject to the same latency issues of instruments being heard on the other side of an internet connection milliseconds after they're actually played, and that this phenomenon can throw off the best of live internet musicians.
My band members and I could not find a metronome beat produced by the software itself in the JamKazam software I use and reference above (which of course doesn't mean it fails to exist or wouldn't exhibit similar latency problems). When our connections to each other are suboptimal the beat of a musical piece always ends up slower than when we began, even when our conductor claps his hands, as each of us hears each other later, even if only by fractions of a second, than when we made sound.
Post Edited (2020-10-25 19:52)
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2020-10-26 16:17
SecondTry, thanks for the clarification. It wasn't clear to me that it was only 'virtual', but maybe in person some time and 'virtual' sometime. You are quite correct if it is virtual only. Thanks.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-01-14 20:36
Attachment: jamkazam.jpg (96k)
Hi SecondTry,
I am having a go at JamKazam now. I have got my Zoom H1n mic attached to it and my teacher turns out to have a zoom mic too, so we are going to think about having a go next week. Fingers crossed!
I like how it measures the latency of my setup and displays it onscreen so I can adjust the setup to improve it. I have attached a picture in case others would like to see.
We are hoping that if we can get it right then my teacher will be able to play the piano accompaniment while I play the clarinet part, each in our separate houses. We are just about a mile apart.
Jen
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2021-01-14 21:23
Jen,
I'd be very interested to hear your impression of JamKazam. There are a handful of "latency-mitigating" solutions out there, but (judging mostly from my friends' experiences) none of them have quite worked as well as hoped.
Hopefully your experience will prove to be a success!
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-01-14 22:13
Be prepared to not enjoy the latency. By the numbers humans shouldn't be able to distinguish two ocurrences of sounds that are separated by less than 8 milliseconds (ms). However, there are experienced audio engineers that can hear two separate sounds (ie a bounced snare hit) that are as close as 4ms. Beyond 8ms you'll hear a "flam" or "bud-um."
Your latency statistic is twice that.
But for playing against sustained chords, there should be less of an issue.
I'd emphasize perhaps putting together a final result of accompaniment and solo AFTER both have been recorded (with someone deciding which voice will dictate tempo and tempo changes........the other follows along on headphones to lay down their track).
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-02-21 23:56
Just coming back to report on this. In the end I was not able to get either JamKazam or my zoom microphone to work, so we gave up on that.
My new scheme is to learn to play my clarinet along with a recorded accompaniment and then put a video of my efforts on youtube to let my teacher see during our lesson, and that works pretty well.
The ony downside is that with some pieces like Traumerai by Schumann it's really very hard to play alongside a recorded accompaniment. This is because the tempo is a little bit flexible, and the accompaniment follows the clarinet, so I can't predict at all where to come in. I just decided to skip those pieces and am sticking to ones where it should be possible for me to stick rigidly to the timing of the recorded accompaniment.
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Author: gwie
Date: 2021-02-22 19:50
I'd recommend trying the SonoBus software, which I think is easier to use for direct audio connections than many of the other competitors: https://www.sonobus.net
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2021-02-22 23:41
Thanks, SunnyDaze for reporting back on your experiences.
gwie,
Have you used the SonoBus in colloboration with others? If so...what are your thoughts? In reading up at the link you provided, I like that SonoBus only uses a centralized server in order to "find" one another, but then uses direct peer-to-peer connections for the actual sessions.
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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