 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ibabcock
Date: 2021-02-01 03:41
I figured I'd use contact cement like for cork joints but I just saw a video using shellac like for pads. What is more commonly used?
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2021-02-01 04:05
Contact cement is fine. In Canada it seems the formula now is safer(less combustible?)@but less adhesive. I used some recently and it set much faster than I expected. Apply two coats on the cork and one on the key, let dry and then put together.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2021-02-01 09:01
I may use Duco Cement. A product not easy to find anymore.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2021-02-01 10:44
Yes use contact glue.
Super glue is also an option (both gel and liquid) but has some risks.
I would definitely not use shellac.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2021-02-01 12:40
Contact adhesive is best.
From what I've seen going by working on a recent Recital, Selmer still uses shellac on their clarinet key corks and I'm pretty certain there are still oboe makers that use it too. It may have been the best option before modern adhesives were found to be more advantageous, but it's not the best option unless you want to stick with tradition.
There are three basic ways of using shellac to stick key corks on - either use liquid shellac (made from flakes or ground shellac dissolved in alcohol) and apply it with a brush to the corks or the undersides of the keys and then stick the cork on and wait for an age and a half for it to dry. Another is to prep all the key corks by coating one side with liquid shellac and leaving it to dry, then heat the key up and stick the cork onto it and then trim them once the key has cooled down. And another way is to heat the key up, melt some stick or flake shellac to the underside and stick the cork on whilst the shellac is still molten, then wait for it to cool down before trimming the corks up.
Whereas with contact adhesive, the best method is to make sure the underside of the key is clean and degreased, then coat that surface and also one side of the cork with a thin even layer of adhesive, leave it to become tacky and then stick both glued surfaces together, give them a squeeze to make sure there aren't any air pockets and then trim the corks up as soon as that's done.
Superglue can be used in an emergency, but it does require the key to be thoroughly degreased otherwise it won't bond, but use too much superglue and it can run or drip and stick onto places you don't want it to. Superglue has plenty of applications in clarinet repair - mostly on wooden clarinets, but not for key corks unless there's a dire need and that's the only form of adhesive you have to hand. It can be removed from wood or metal with acetone, but don't use acetone on plastic clarinets as being a solvent it can dissolve ABS and various other plastics.
And when it comes to tenon corks, contact adhesive is also best for them provided the cork slot is nice and flat (and also well cleaned and degreased) as contact adhesive is best used between two close fitting surfaces instead of deeply grooved tenon slots as that provides very little contact area between the cork and the tenon slot as the peaks of the grooves are the only areas of contact with the underside of the cork. Maximise the contact area by machining the grooves smooth and you'll get a far more successful bond. In the olden days when shellac was used, that needed the grooves to provide more surface area for better adhesion of the shellac and the cork sat on the flat layer formed when the shellac filled in the grooves - the shellac was applied molten and the cork was stuck on using a hot knife to melt the surface layer and it was a case of working fast to make the cork stick while the shellac was still molten. Or if liquid shellac was used, the cork strip was wrapped up with string once fitted to keep it in place and put aside while the shellac dried over the course of the next millennium before being able to sand the cork to the required size and shape. If you have plenty of time on your hands and want to take the slow route, then that method is ideal. If you prefer instant workability, then contact adhesive is perfect.
Shellac still has its place when it comes to installing skin, leather and cork pads (synthetic pads are best installed using hot glue as that's sticky at a much lower temperature), but contact adhesive is the best all round for key corks and tenon corks once all the necessary prep has been done.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2021-02-01 20:40
I just started using shellac for pads. It seemed easier than glue. I'll probably continue to use hot glue for student horns, on account of marching and temperature changes, but I find it a pain.
I use rubber cement for corks, but I also find it a pain. It's always drying out in the container, and you have to wait so long for it to dry before sticking the parts together. Chris wisely suggested "Barge" which doesn't dry out in the tube. It lasts forever. I also works pretty well, but it's so stringy it's impossible to set the pieces down. I have to stick them on my spring poker or something.
Ferrees' quick dry stuff works fast, but dries out in the container. I like DAP Weldwood a lot, but it dries out - although not nearly as fast as Ferrees. Elmer's didn't really work. I really wish I could find an alternative because I can't manage the stuff without getting it on my hands and with a compromised nervous system it's a bad idea. I suppose you could try hot glue, but most corks probably don't have enough surface area to stay put.
I've thought about shellac for corks. I suspect that some of the shellaced pads and corks that fall off weren't prepped well. Cemented corks also fall off.
- Matthew Simington
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Author: ibabcock
Date: 2021-02-02 00:01
Thank you all, I will use my contact adhesive for the key cork. Chris, thanks for the info about removing the joint grooves with contact adhesive, makes good sense. Matt, on my joint corks I used a contact adhesive that is a favorite for applying leather and leatherettes to metal bodies of vintage cameras. The brand is Pliobond and it is a contact adhesive with MEK solvent to thin it. It's thin like a prepackaged yogurt drink. You get great coverage and if applying a thin coat it tacks up almost instantly. It doesn't gum up the tube of the dispenser either!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2021-02-02 03:27
I use Evo-Stik Impact Adhesive which has changed its formula and no longer contains toluene, but it's still a pretty decent adhesive if a bit stringy in its new formula compared to the original formula.
I'm sure there are others that are better out there, but as I've got about a million 30g tubes of it, I've got to use them up before committing to using a different brand. The ideal contact adhesive should go on nice and thin, adhere well, not be stringy and easy to remove and clean up when you have to.
The worst contact adhesive I've tried (not through my own choice) was a water based 'environmental friendly' version of Evo-Stik back in the '90s which took aeons and a half to dry, the water content soaked right into paper or card and it stunk like a mix of rotten meat and cat wee-wee (similar to Copydex).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2021-02-03 02:18
Chris, sorry I thought it was you.
Solvents are nasty stuff. I had to use a lot in my last job as a gilder. The strongest ones work the best because they dissolve the toughest substances and evaporate the quickest, but they’re the most toxic. We had a little bottle of Xylene, and if I opened it at arms length wearing a respirator it was like getting stabbed between the eyes with an ice pick - immediately. Instant headache.
- Matthew Simington
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2021-02-03 02:52
The thing with the new formula Evo-Stik is it does dry faster than the old formula - around 5 minutes to become touch dry as opposed to around 15 minutes. It's also a clear yellow colour instead of opaque and smells more like plastic adhesive (eg. Bostik).
There are some instances where contact adhesive can be used like any other glue just because of practicalities - the cork doughnut on oboe/cor split D#-E trill mechanisms is best fitted whilst the adhesive is still wet and applied to the top side of the metal bush, then pressed together with the RH3 ring key and left to dry on its own accord. It won't fall off as the bush holds it in place.
For all other applications that require good adhesion and strength, apply it in the usual manner of coating both sides, leaving it to dry then sticking both glued surfaces together.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2021-02-03 16:37
I used the old formula Evostik for years and never had to wait for 15 minutes. It was usually between a minute to five minutes, depending on weather, surface size, thickness (which varied slightly), but more often closer to the former.
I tried the new formula, still ok, but I didn't like it as much. I changed to Bison which I like pretty much as much as the old Evostik. I tried about ten different ones and tested easy cases (e.g. large contact area cork) and difficult ones (e.g. tiny piece of synthetic felt), then trying to peel them off after a short time, long time, etc.
The best contact glue I've ever tried was a no-name one made in China, with very few details written on it, but it had such a nasty smell, one test was enough to never use it again...
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2021-02-03 20:24
Maybe it's a climate thing as I usually had to wait for up to 15 minutes when doing tenon or crook corks for the old formula glue to become tacky here in the UK no matter what time of year. Smaller surface areas like key corks took much less time to become for the glue to become tacky.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2021-02-07 00:27
Super glue, if you use the correct type (the gel for wood, leather, etc.) and the surfaces are really clean, will bond the cork better than shellac, hot glue or contact cement. There is a super glue remover, although not popularly available.
Just use a small amount (apply with toothpick or small flat-blade screwdriver) and don't drizzle it elsewhere ... like I do!
I have used MP patch material and mole skin in emergencies.
Tom
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2021-02-07 00:36
The main problem with superglue is that it's not the easiest stuff to remove if it's well adhered, short of either chipping away at it, scraping it, using heat or solvents to remove every last trace of it and trying not to mark the keywork in the process.
Contact adhesive is much easier to remove as and when you need to.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2021-02-07 01:38
There is some super glue remover that turns the glue into jelly. Works pretty good. You just have to be careful using. Super glue does bond very well.
I don't worry about it, as I usually send to a repairman ... however, our local shop will not service anything but main manufacturers ... so a Ridenour or Kessler and Sons clarinet will be rejected by the shop foreman.
Tom
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2021-02-10 23:10
Tom, Double check to make sure. Many techs will not work on cheap Chinese horns, but Ridenour should be fine. IDK about the Kessler branded one.
- Matthew Simington
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2021-02-12 09:30
>> Maybe it's a climate thing as I usually had to wait for up to 15 minutes when doing tenon or crook corks for the old formula glue to become tacky here in the UK no matter what time of year. <<
Maybe I spread it thinner than most.
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