 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: mmichel
Date: 2021-02-10 08:14
Hello all,
I have a crossbite/slight underbite (i.e., my top incisors sit just behind my bottom incisors), and I wonder how this should impact my clarinet embouchure and posture.
I'm primarily a saxophonist. I've been playing saxophone for over 30 years and, on that instrument, my underbite has never been a problem because the mouthpiece enters the mouth nearly perpendicular to the mouth.
Though I've also doubled on clarinet off and on (mostly off) for much of that time, I've never really focused on the mechanics of good tone production. Instead, like many saxophonist doublers, I'd start practicing clarinet a few weeks before a gig that required it, then consign it to the closet when the gig was over.
That changed for me recently. For the past two years, I've practiced regularly and made concerted efforts to work on my technique and sound. To that end, in addition to working on tone exercises, I've been trying to correct my embouchure and posture. However, one problem that I've encountered is that the generally prescribed posture (i.e., head up, elbows tucked, clarinet at a low angle) seems virtually impossible for me to achieve with my underbite. With my head up, I can't play the instrument at anything below a 45 degree angle (and even that is pushing things).
My guess is that the prescribed posture is based on the fact that something like 95% of people have an overbite, and I haven't been able to find any information on how this posture should be adapted to accommodate an underbite.
For those of you who are teachers, have you encountered this problem with any students? If so, how did you resolve it?
Thanks
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2021-02-10 20:26
mmichel wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I have a crossbite/slight underbite (i.e., my top incisors sit
> just behind my bottom incisors), and I wonder how this should
> impact my clarinet embouchure and posture.
>
> With my head up, I can't play the
> instrument at anything below a 45 degree angle (and even that
> is pushing things).
>
> For those of you who are teachers, have you encountered this
> problem with any students? If so, how did you resolve it?
>
To tell the truth, I've never encountered a problem in a student who had the alignment you describe. I assume that it isn't because I've never taught a student like that, but rather that they had found a way to position things in a way that didn't interfere. There is some separation between the upper and lower teeth where the mouthpiece fits, and it may be that that's enough possibly to neutralize or reduce the effect of the vertical alignment.
So, I guess the answer from my experience is that I didn't have to resolve problems like that - the students had managed it before I met them. But I haven't taught complete beginners, with one specific exception, for a very long time. On the other side of the coin, I guess that indicates that the problem can be resolved without having the clarinet come straight out.
You may be able to pull your bottom jaw back, away from the mouthpiece, to bring the bottom teeth more even with the top. A thicker-beaked mouthpiece might help by increasing the vertical separation slightly. The mouthpiece angle is very much related to the oral structure even when the bottom teeth are inside the top ones, and players find the most comfortable way to accommodate their own physical idiosyncrasies. You might experiment with double-lip to see if it can negate any of the alignment issue.
An important point is not to let what you're used to feeling with a sax mouthpiece block you from trying different solutions involving different sensations with a clarinet.
Karl
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Author: mmichel
Date: 2021-02-11 04:18
kdk wrote:
> To tell the truth, I've never encountered a problem in a
> student who had the alignment you describe. I assume that it
> isn't because I've never taught a student like that, but rather
> that they had found a way to position things in a way that
> didn't interfere. There is some separation between the upper
> and lower teeth where the mouthpiece fits, and it may be that
> that's enough possibly to neutralize or reduce the effect of
> the vertical alignment.
>
> So, I guess the answer from my experience is that I didn't have
> to resolve problems like that - the students had managed it
> before I met them. But I haven't taught complete beginners,
> with one specific exception, for a very long time. On the other
> side of the coin, I guess that indicates that the problem can
> be resolved without having the clarinet come straight out.
Right. However, if you're not teaching complete beginners, then another possibility is self-selection. As I mentioned above, underbites are pretty uncommon in the population anyway, and I'd imagine that if it contributed to problems in playing clarinet, its sufferers would be less likely to continue on for very long. In other words, the prevalence of underbite in experienced clarinet players is likely vanishingly small (which, I suppose, is why it's been difficult to find information on this topic).
> You may be able to pull your bottom jaw back, away from the
> mouthpiece, to bring the bottom teeth more even with the top.
I don't know whether you've tried this, but I find it extremely difficult to pull back my jaw at all from my "at rest" biting position. I think this is just normal physiology. Thrusting the lower jaw forward is easy (I can achieve about an inch of foward thrust), but pulling it back is physiologically impossible for me.
> A thicker-beaked mouthpiece might help by increasing the vertical
> separation slightly. The mouthpiece angle is very much related
> to the oral structure even when the bottom teeth are inside the
> top ones, and players find the most comfortable way to
> accommodate their own physical idiosyncrasies. You might
> experiment with double-lip to see if it can negate any of the
> alignment issue.
>
> An important point is not to let what you're used to feeling
> with a sax mouthpiece block you from trying different solutions
> involving different sensations with a clarinet.
Thanks. I'm sure I have some bad habits (these are what I'm trying to correct), but I'm certainly not trying to copy my saxophone embouchure at all. There's a night and day difference between my embouchures on soprano clarinet and soprano saxophone, for example.
Post Edited (2021-02-11 04:20)
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Author: mmichel
Date: 2021-02-11 05:11
kdk wrote:
> You might experiment with double-lip to see if it can negate any of the
> alignment issue.
I was going to dismiss this comment (I've tried double-lip on the saxophone in the past and absolutely hated it), but I tried it and it's not too bad on the clarinet. I was afraid that it would impact the stability of the clarinet and that I wouldn't be able to play altissimo, but both were fine. I might start incorporating this into my regular practice routine.
I don't think it has too much effect on the angle at which I can play the clarinet, but maybe it's an alternative way to make sure that I'm not engaging in bad habits.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2021-02-11 10:43
I have a slight underbite ... hasn't been a problem.
It was reported that Robert Marcellus had a considerable overbite, and we know how well he played! And, later on, he had dentures ... and that didn't slow him down, either!
Tom
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-02-12 07:47
Hi Mmichael,
If you're stuck, you could possibly get an angled barrel made by someone with a 3D printer, so that your clarinet mouthpiece enters your mouth at the same angle as on the saxophone. I toyed with that idea for a while, when I was experimenting with double lip playing. I wrote to a clarinet part maker and he said it would only be about $30 or something like that.
I've fiddled around a lot with modifications to my clarinet and every time I get another little niggle sorted out via a modification it brings on my playing in leaps and bounds. My feeling is that if the instrument was only invented in the 1700s then the design is not yet finished and we are free to make improvements. :-)
Good luck there.
Jen
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Author: mmichel
Date: 2021-02-13 02:07
TomS wrote:
> I have a slight underbite ... hasn't been a problem.
>
> It was reported that Robert Marcellus had a considerable overbite, and we
> know how well he played! And, later on, he had dentures ... and that didn't > slow him down, either!
I didn't mean to imply that it was generally a problem for me either, just that it makes it difficult and uncomfortable for me to play at the **at the prescribed angle**. I had noticed in the past that I play a little high compared to other clarinetists. However, when I try adjusting the angle downward toward my body, my head inevitably follows. If I make an effort to keep my head up, I find it extremely uncomfortable to try to play the clarinet at a low angle (and nearly impossible to produce an acceptable and consistent tone).
I was mostly just wondering whether others had also experienced this (i.e., do you find that your playing angle differs from that of other clarinetists?) and whether there are other simple ways of evaluating correct embouchure. I'm perfectly comfortable simply playing the clarinet at a higher angle (like I'm currently doing) as long as it doesn't lead to bad habits.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2021-02-13 03:59
mmichel wrote:
> I didn't mean to imply that it was generally a problem for me
> either, just that it makes it difficult and uncomfortable for
> me to play at the **at the prescribed angle**. I had noticed in
> the past that I play a little high compared to other
> clarinetists. However, when I try adjusting the angle downward
> toward my body, my head inevitably follows.
I used to watch the players in the Philadelphia Orchestra - still do (except for the last year because of COVID-19). They all play at different angles. Gigliotti used to play with the instrument quite close to his body (for much of his playing life). Montanaro used to look like he was aiming his face toward the floor and looking up at the music only with his eyeballs. Sam Caveziel looks similar. To me Morales looks straight out but holds the clarinet fairly high. They all got/get excellent results. I think you just have to experiment and find a way that works. What you shouldn't do is model on someone else's "correct" way.
Bad habits are habits that produce sub-optimal results.
Karl
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Author: mmichel
Date: 2021-02-13 05:38
kdk wrote:
> I used to watch the players in the Philadelphia Orchestra -
> still do (except for the last year because of COVID-19). They
> all play at different angles. Gigliotti used to play with the
> instrument quite close to his body (for much of his playing
> life). Montanaro used to look like he was aiming his face
> toward the floor and looking up at the music only with his
> eyeballs. Sam Caveziel looks similar. To me Morales looks
> straight out but holds the clarinet fairly high. They all
> got/get excellent results. I think you just have to experiment
> and find a way that works. What you shouldn't do is model on
> someone else's "correct" way.
>
> Bad habits are habits that produce sub-optimal results.
Thanks, this puts me a bit more at ease.
I was concerned because I went through a similar issue with flute a few years ago. I.e., I had been doubling on it for decades without formal instruction with decent results, but when I finally took formal lessons with an instructor, I learned that I had been using an incorrect embouchure (the "smile" embouchure) that limited my ability to play flexibly in the extreme ends of the flute range. It took me months of remedial exercises to correct this issue, so I'd rather get out ahead of any comparable issues on clarinet.
Ideally, I'd take in-person lessons as I did for flute, but that's obviously not practical at the moment and I'm skeptical of the value of remote, video-based lessons for diagnosing these types of issues.
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Author: Jarmo Hyvakko
Date: 2021-02-13 11:23
I believe, that the only possibility is to nod your head down to achieve the instrument to point downwards. For your sound it's vital that your instrument doesn't point straight forward. It changes the sound towards harsh and bright for the listener dramatically. Mahler & co didn't ask to play "bells up" in certain places in vain, it is because of loudness and sound colour.
Jarmo Hyvakko, Principal Clarinet, Tampere Philharmonic, Finland
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