 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2021-01-04 01:49
I wanted to respond to a post about a counterfeit Buffet. The author correctly noted that it is recommended to try all new genuine horns and have them adjusted, and then wondered
"Are the counterfeit ones you don't trust any worse than the real ones you don't trust?"
- This is a good question.
Answer:
They are judged by completely different criteria. People have very high standards for a Buffet or Yamaha, and very low standards for generic horns. People are mad when a Buffet or Yamaha gets an 8/10. They get mad because generic horns average a 3/10. (I'm making that up, but you get the idea.)
Explanation:
First, "Why do you need to test genuine horns and have them adjusted?"
- The reason is that every last one of them plays a little different, and the factory finish isn't perfect. Some horns are going to be better than others, and if you are paying hundreds or thousands, you might as well get the best one you can. Dimensions and adjustments that make a difference can be measured in less than 0.001" (less than 1/3 the width of a human hair). So, between being made of wood that is always changing, less than perfectly adjusted at the factory, and shipped half way around the world, they need checked out. It's not so much a matter of them producing a bunch of "duds", as it is the nature of woodwinds.
Second,"Are counterfeit horns really any less reliable than genuine ones?"
- Counterfeit horns are not "copies". They are only made to superficially resemble real ones. Fakes are not designed or built like the real ones, and won't fool anyone knowledgeable. At best you will get an inexpensive Chinese student horn. Many repairmen refuse to work on them because they can't be fixed. Things are sloppy, don't line up, etc. Making them work is often not worth the effort or expense.
Go on Alibaba, and look at what they are charging for a clarinet wholesale, and you will see that it's pretty much impossible for them to be comparable to a Buffet or Yamaha.
I saw a presentation by the faculty of Red Wing Band Instrument Repair school while I was there. They had recently visited many factories in China. Presumably counterfeits are produced in some of these factories, or ones like them. The faculty was not unsympathetic. The manufacturers wanted to make good horns, and valued my professors' knowledge and opinions. They met the management and craftsman and talked to them. They watched them working on the floor and socialized with them. They said the horns are getting better. At the same time, they emphasized how different the production was. The pictures I saw were pretty amazing. Some of the factories were very basic. They simply don't have the same experience, knowledge, or production culture that you will find at established makers. It's not that the Chinese can't produce good stuff - it's that they do not yet produce the same quality instruments. Mostly they emphasized that quality control is bad. I'm sure that some are better than others, but the cheap horns aren't really comparable to a Buffet, Yamaha, or other standard makers.
I am no "brand snob". There are many options OTHER than Buffet and Yamaha, sometimes a much lower cost, especially if you consider vintage/used horns. I wish the Chinese the best in developing their industry, and they will. That said, there is a very big difference between buying a reputable horn, and a "mystery" horn.
Perhaps some of those who have experience working on them and playing them will add comments.
- Matthew Simington
Post Edited (2021-01-04 01:53)
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2021-01-04 03:05
The "Buffet experience" is really the source of most of this discussion when it comes to the issue with brand name instruments, unfortunately. It's quite well documented here and elsewhere.
Anders
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Author: Hurstfarm
Date: 2021-01-04 03:36
You make a very good point, and clarinet “brand snobbery” is undoubtedly a thing - although not really any different from other types of consumer goods, like cars, electrical goods, clothing etc., which of course are also prone to counterfeiting. I’d accept that there may be counterfeiters who try to make a decent product, and some counterfeit instruments might play acceptably for the price, but their makers are still operating dishonestly.
There’s clear moral problem in passing off a product as something it’s not. Some may be happy buying a fake Rolex for the sake of appearances, and it will probably tell the time adequately. It’s unlikely many would choose to buy (say) a fake R13 for its appearance though: more likely they are mislead into thinking they’ve got a bargain on a professional instrument. There are plenty of budget priced, Chinese-made instruments that are honestly marketed and carefully made to clear quality standards. Jupiter and Ridenour are good examples, and Royal Global are pushing into the premium end of the market with products at a quality and price that will give Buffet and Yamaha pause for thought.
I guess the key is to keep calling out the fakes for what they are, and try to steer buyers on tight budgets to the honest manufacturers.
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Author: EbClarinet
Date: 2021-01-11 18:29
I think I bought a cheap straight soprano sax from this cheap music store online. I didn't know 2 not by cheap though. I thought I was getting a steal until the delivery man brought the box and I noticed that it wasn't long. I wondered what went wrong and they sent me a curved soprano saxophone!
I didn't think 2 sit down with a tuner but I tried to use it 2 play along with some songs and it was out of tune. I tried different reeds and expensive mouth pieces but it was still out of tune.
I got with another musical instrument guy and he told me it was a rare sax in the key of A. He has a store and I traded it in (he gave me $250) for a soprano sax. I only paid $500 for it. So some times a lemon can be a blessing in disguise!
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/mbtldsongministry/
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2021-01-12 02:33
My problem with counterfeit instruments is they're not only harmful to the reputation of the genuine companies, but also they're taking hard earnt money from unsuspecting buyers and they end up with a low quality knock-off instead of the genuine article.
I recently saw a fake Yamaha YTS-62 tenor sax that had numerous dead giveaways as to it being a fake to those who know what they're looking for, but there were some specific features copied that are only seen on Yamaha tenor saxes that show the fakes are getting better and better. They still have a fair way to go before fake instruments are almost indistinguishable from the genuine articles just as is seen with other counterfeit goods until you take a very close look at them.
While obvious fakes have laser etched logos, wrong model numbers and serial numbers, some of the more recent Keilwerth, Selmer, Yamaha and Yanagisawa fakes have stamped logos like the originals.
At the moment all the fake clarinets doing the rounds seem to be mostly copies of Schreiber-built Buffets (B12 and E11) even when engraved as Yamaha 250, Buffet Prodige or R13 which makes then easy to spot as there are always some glaringly wrong details.
If a fake was bought in good faith with the belief it was the genuine article, then the buyer often only finds out once they start having trouble with it and take it to get repaired where only then the reality hits hard. If the repairer has any scruples, they'd most likely refuse to work on it as they know it's got even more problems they're not willing to deal with, or they simply refuse to work on counterfeits out of principle. I personally wouldn't want to work on any counterfeits on principle as fake goods often have a very murky background which I don't want to be part of.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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