 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Nomenclature
Date: 2020-12-17 16:35
Hi, I'm struggling to get the fourth octave E as most of the time it just doesn't sound, cracks or is really flat. I've been using Legere Signature Series 2.5 reeds for a while now. Any advice please? What should I be doing with my embouchure? If I put more mouthpiece in, I squeak. Help! Thanks!
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2020-12-17 18:46
If you can play the fourth octave D, try starting on it and slurring up to the E by lifting your RH first finger.
Keep the embouchure completely still and the corners firm. Voicing (how you shape your mouth, throat, and lips) also comes into play. I find that thinking "eeee" (American pronunciation) really helps.
There is a voicing exercise to help practice this. Play low C, then try to play its related higher G WITHOUT adding the register key. Then try to make it "squeak" the high E, again without adding the register key. At the beginning this might be tricky, but even if you can't get it to work, it can help!
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Author: kdk
Date: 2020-12-17 19:57
Nomenclature wrote:
> Hi, I'm struggling to get the fourth octave E as most of the
> time it just doesn't sound, cracks or is really flat. I've
> been using Legere Signature Series 2.5 reeds for a while now.
> Any advice please? What should I be doing with my embouchure?
> If I put more mouthpiece in, I squeak. Help! Thanks!
Katrina wrote:
> If you can play the fourth octave D, try starting on it and
> slurring up to the E by lifting your RH first finger.
>
You've told us about your reeds. Not about your mouthpiece.
If, as Katrina asks, you can play a good-sounding, in tune D6 (a step lower), that may be significant. If D6 is iffy as well, then the problem is more general.
Without hearing you play those notes or anything else on the clarinet, three things come to mind:
(1) The 2,5 Legere may be slightly too soft for your mouthpiece. If you have a 2.75, try that. And Legeres in general can tend toward flatness anyway, so you might also try a cane reed of the same strength as your Legere, depending on your mouthpiece, just to see if the same problem persists.
(2) When you play, your throat, tongue and jaw should ideally be relaxed and pliable. But your lips, IMO, should be firmly set around the mouthpiece and reed. Not biting (using the jaw muscles), but engaging firmly. You may just need to apply a little more pressure by pulling your lips more firmly around the mouthpiece.
(3) Sometimes, when something goes wrong often enough, we do things to try to avoid having the problem happen, and sometimes those actions actually make things worse. You shouldn't be changing (or need to change) anything in your embouchure or air stream either to coax or to force E to speak. Pay close attention to see if you may be flinching or letting up slightly on the air when you try to play E. In a normal (non-Pandemic) time you might have someone else finger the notes while you blow so you can't anticipate when the note will change.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-12-17 21:40
Legeres tend not to like being "over powered." By that I mean it is easy to do our cane reed schtick and bear down on them to play altissimo notes (or bear down on them if they are a bit too stiff). Either scenario doesn't work well at all with Legeres. They tend to just pinch off. So a Legere that is too stiff might even come of feeling too weak (if that makes sense).
In your case, I have had similar issues when I let old habits get the better of me. The trick is to remain poised in the altissimo as you are in the clarion......and just let the note happen. If the reeds are a few months old already, they do weaken and moving them up a hair (and I mean just a itsy bitsy tiny bit) might help. Problem here is that if you move the Legere up too far, it will just not play right at all (just thuddy and unresponsive......not just harder).
............Paul Aviles
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2020-12-17 23:22
I second Katrina's idea of playing D and slurring up (and beyond E later to other notes). Maybe experiment with cane reeds.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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Author: Bennett ★2017
Date: 2020-12-18 02:42
And try half-holeing the Left hand 1st finger hole, i.e., cover the two holes below completely, as usual, but partially cover the very first left-hand hole. This is often helpful for the altissimo notes. And remember to open the RH Eb pinky key.
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2020-12-18 03:02
After trying all the other suggestions, also try a bit more mouthpiece. There is a sweet spot for every mouthpiece/reed/jaw combination.
I also have trouble in altissimo with non-cane reeds so I have never liked or used them.
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Author: Qladstone
Date: 2020-12-18 04:21
There is too little information here to jump to conclusions and start blaming Legere reeds. Just in the other thread http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=480899&t=480899 we have people comfortably playing Legeres all the way to C7. If someone only just started playing in the altissimo and decided to try to hit E6 before even C#6 and D6 (or even C6, B5) sound well then the reed is unlikely to be the problem.
Post Edited (2020-12-18 04:24)
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2020-12-18 06:14
I agree about the Legere. Once I got used to mine (2nd one) I can hit that C fairly easy, even a D on occasion. But, still prefer cane.
Another thing to try with the E is using the RH C pinky instead of Eb key. Sometimes I use that for better intonation, so don't know if it helps to produce the E when you're learning E.
I would beware of taking in more mouthpiece. Yes, that will work, and have to admit I tend to do that when really up there in and around that double high C (if that is what C7 is). But really you are supposed to keep your embouchure and amount of mouthpiece you take in steady. If it's a matter of not taking in enough for playing in general, that is another matter.
I looked it up. Why is is called C7? It is only the 4th C counting low C.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
Post Edited (2020-12-18 06:22)
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2020-12-18 07:22
Quote:
I looked it up. Why is is called C7? It is only the 4th C counting low C
I believe you're looking only at treble cleff. The naming convention isn't specific to clarinet. "Middle C" (the C between the bass and treble clefs) is C4.
(I still haven't gotten use to this naming convention.)
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: Qladstone
Date: 2020-12-18 07:28
Tom H wrote:
> I looked it up. Why is is called C7? It is only the 4th
> C counting low C
It's the so called "scientific pitch notation" so that everyone has a concise standardised way to tell which note in which octave exactly we are talking about. I am not sure why it's called C7 but I would reckon a guess that it's because it's the 7th C on the standard 88-key piano. There is also a C0 below the lowest C (C1) on the piano.
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2020-12-18 09:17
It’s probably not your embouchure, it’s your voicing.
For me two things worked:
1. Playing the third register no matter how bad it sounded, until it sounded good.
2. Finding the correct voicing.
If high notes won’t sound (and you aren’t biting etc., and the horn and reed work, etc.) the problem is that you are not creating the conditions for the required partial to sound - or you are strengthening the fundamental or lower partial too much. You need to find the voicing that re-enforces the necessary partial.
You should play overtones, like Katrina suggested. The E is an overblown xxx|ooo C/G. Cracking your first finger a bit ( /xx|ooo ) can help you to find it. You can try overtones on any note, this will get you used to what it feels like to make the change.
You can also try holding the highest note you can play and changing your palate, throat, or tongue to get the strongest most resonant sound you can (not necessarily loud), then playing the next higher note (whole or half step). Don’t bite and relax as much as possible. It may require some muscle effort to form your throat or palate. This won’t work 100% because the acoustics of the horn might strongly favor D over E, so what works well for D might not be quite right for E. Overtones will work.
To me it kind of feels like I do something with my palate and throat that makes it seem like the sound is in my nasal cavity or even in front of and between my eyes, but it may feel different for you.
- Matthew Simington
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Author: dkojevnikov
Date: 2020-12-18 16:37
I am a beginner but I can reliably play up to C7 on Legeres. For me it was a combination of voicing, tongue position (really, try all possible and impossible tongue positions) and mouthpiece. Ligature plays its role too and its placement.
I would say in my case the biggest impact was to find a tongue position for altissimo starting from A6 and up.
Mouthpieces play significant role here too. If they are a bit uneven or crooked, altissimo becomes extremely difficult. Some mouthpieces are more Legere and altissimo friendly than others. Most closed face mouthpieces are easier to use for altissimo.
I have a great result with Backun Vocalise G + Legere European 3.5 + Silverstein ligature (now my favourite combination). D’addario Reserve X0, Selmer Focus, Vandoren M15 and M13 lyre as well as Vandoren BD5.
I also really like Backun Vocalise GC (transparent one) with Legere European 3.25. A bit more difficult to play in altissimo (and injured lower lip) due to its openness but what a sound!
For now I just settled on Backun Vocalise G + Legere European 3.5 as the best combination allowing to practice in upper register much longer.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-12-18 19:39
To go back to the "scientific naming notation," then the added confusion is (if you wanna be picky about it).........are you referring to the "concert Bb" or the "concert D?"
Can we just say the position on the treble clef (or which ledger line)?
There is NOTHING scientific about being confused.........although there was at least one catastrophic crash of a NASA probe on Mars because one set of scientists was using English system measurements and another group of scientists was expressing measurements in metric.
alas
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2020-12-18 20:32
Paul Aviles wrote:
>
> There is NOTHING scientific about being
> confused.........although there was at least one catastrophic
> crash of a NASA probe on Mars because one set of scientists was
> using English system measurements and another group of
> scientists was expressing measurements in metric.
Yes. That is why - up near the top - you see the "BBoard C4", aka middle C, and if you look at the link "Smileys/Notes" you will see ways of embedding the actual note - C7 looks like ![[C7]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/c7.gif) . Type in [C7] The other notes follow the pattern of [Note name]
Concert pitch, transposed pitch, etc. has to be spelled out - the clarinet C7 is not concert C7 ...
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2020-12-19 04:41
The struggle never ends, it just proceeds upward. Do any (other) readers here spend time on high altissimo, i.e., the range above C7?
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Author: Nomenclature
Date: 2020-12-20 01:11
Thanks everyone for your answers so far. The mouthpiece I'm using is a Vandoren B45 on a Buffet RC clarinet.
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2020-12-20 02:15
Philip, I can get a high C# & D. Actually easier with my Legere #2 reed. North of that it's a crap shoot.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
Post Edited (2020-12-20 02:15)
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