 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2020-12-13 22:05
Of course as a clarinet player I come to this discussion with bias, quite possibly ignorance, but I don't think--at least I hope not--arrogance.
I've seen lists of instruments that are hard to play. Some instruments on such lists I completely agree deserve their place as harder than the clarinet to play.
Oboe/Bassoon has to be up there, and certainly piano and and drums (i.e. a drum kit) as players of these latter two instruments must read and perform different notes with each hand, sometimes in different rhythms
...okay not that clarinet is only played with 1 hand---but those hands form to make 1 note.....
And when I say "hard to play" I mean to play well. It may be easier to first get a note out of a clarinet than a flute, but I'm not sure flute deserves a label as a more difficult to play instrument than clarinet--not that I've ever seen a ranking where that was the case, and not that pretty much any instrument doesn't take enormous amounts of work to be good at playing.
Clearly such lists can also be subject to bias but I find it curious how violin seems to habitually beat out clarinet. (Fair disclosure: I don't play violin.)
Okay, at least it's clear where we need to put our fingers compared to a fretless violin, but getting those fingers placed, in unison, coming from some note, particularly at a fast clip, where many fingers are involved, is no easy task.
And then there's everything from the barrel up. From mouthpieces to the subtly of reeds to what goes on in our mouth (coordinating it with the fingers no less).
I sometimes think that an analogy, although stretched, were if a violinist played a somewhat similar feeling, but different instrument everyday as we deal with the unpredictableness of cane, and the time we take to prepare it.
....and when was the last time you saw a violinist out of breath, or need to take one, or circular breath, to get the next one to play?.....
;)
Your thoughts....
Post Edited (2020-12-13 22:08)
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2020-12-13 23:09
I would think this is a very individual thing...and also dependent on whether the musician has already reached a certain level of proficiency on a different instrument...and what type of instrument that "first" instrument was.
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2020-12-13 23:43
Of course Fuzzy. I completely agree.
And yet, in jest, a part of me wants to do my best version of the late John McLaughlin, of the US Sunday morning talk shows of past McLaughlin Group, rudely saying "wrong answer!" until someone says, "clarinet IS the hardest instrument ever!"
Here's comedian Dana Carvey doing his best John McLaughlin, may the latter rest in peace:
https://youtu.be/koFlWXgX52E?t=38
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-12-14 00:55
The issue with string players not breathing is that there is the absence of that natural connection to phrasing (singing is the primordial instrument.....and we all merely attempt to copy that). So the string player needs to impose phrasing on there playing making that part of the equation an additional complication.
I would say though that the french horn is the most difficult in that one needs to "hear" the pitch in your head before you play it. The notes most often sounded on french horn are very high in the overtone series which makes them very close to each other and the differences between notes comes down to imperceptibly small difference in embouchure and air support.
So in my book violin would come a close second.
True, clarinets don't play themselves, but still you have mostly a chart for where to put your fingers for any given note. More often than not, the right note tends to come out.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: alanporter
Date: 2020-12-14 01:50
Having seen this question, I was tempted to really find the very hardest instrument to play. I found the World's largest pipe organ at the Boardwalk Hall Auditorium at Atlantic City NJ.
This organ has no less than 33,114 pipes, with 7 hand keyboards (called manuals)
449 ranks of connected groups of pipes, 337 registers, a foot pedal keyboard (called a clavier), and dozens of pull-out stops operated by hand.
Can you think of anything harder to play than this?
Alan
tiaroa@shaw.ca
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-12-14 02:37
I played pedal harp for a while - the trickiest part of that is substituting enharmonic notes such as using a G# instead of an Ab if both Ab and A natural occur in the same passage and getting back again while not losing others. And people expecting you to play piano music or writing for it like a piano with more than four notes to each chord in each hand, loads of chromatic runs, double sharps/flats and sight reading when there's a lot of pedalling to sort out.
Although with them tuned to a basic diatonic scale, scales, arpeggios, chords and inversions are the same pattern in every key (the pedal settings are different for each scale) and both hands have the same fingerings instead of left and right hands being mirrored as on keyboards.
Even though it's a stringed instrument, I was still told by my teacher to breathe with the phrasing than just merely breathing normally as you'd do if sat watching telly or waiting for the kettle to boil or whatnot.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Bennett ★2017
Date: 2020-12-14 03:36
I've heard that after the 1st violin/concert master the principal French horn is the highest paid member of an orchestra. If true and $$=difficulty, horn is the most difficult.
I've also read (here: https://bit.ly/37bDGNM that Sousa paid his bass drummer more than all his other players.
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Author: Qladstone
Date: 2020-12-14 04:15
SecondTry wrote:
> Clearly such lists can also be subject to bias but I find it curious how violin seems to habitually beat out clarinet. (Fair disclosure: I don't play violin.)
> Okay, at least it's clear where we need to put our fingers compared to a fretless violin, but getting those fingers placed, in unison, coming from some note, particularly at a fast clip, where many fingers are involved, is no easy task.
> And then there's everything from the barrel up. From mouthpieces to the subtly of reeds to what goes on in our mouth (coordinating it with the fingers no less).
I also don't play the violin, but I do observe it with enthusiasm because I admire its expressiveness.
Finger placement for the violin is tricky too, and not just because it is fretless but also because of the string action and different amounts of pressure required depending on the position on the string. On the clarinet the most we have to move is our pinkies and make small adjustments of some other fingers while the violinist has to shift between multiple hand positions while keeping the phrasing intact. The clarinet has a few alternate fingerings for each note but for the most part we can play with just a select one or two fingerings whereas the violinist has to contend with four possible fingers and four possible strings.
I am not too sure how variable violin strings and bows may be from day to day, but it would not be surprising if they had similar issues perhaps to a smaller extent.
Issues of tone production on the clarinet with air support and embouchure, and articulation, likewise have their parallels with bow technique on the violin.
Violinists may not have to worry about breathing, but they do have to worry about the limited length of the bow since different parts of the bow require different amounts of pressure and the up-bow and down-bow are difficult to make sound the same. A clarinetist can play a single note for as long as the breath allows, whereas the violinist must end the note the moment the end of the bow is reached and play another note after that.
Even if we assumed all the challenges above are equal between the violin and the clarinet (which I suspect not, with the violin having the greater share of its difficulties) we have been discussing monophonic tone production thus far and let us not forget that violinists are routinely expected to play double stops - that coming with its own share of challenges.
Post Edited (2020-12-14 04:25)
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2020-12-14 06:08
Two things-- beginning an instrument vs. being an accomplished player.
For beginning an instrument, yes the clarinet may rank as one of the easiest. Especially if the player is say a 6th grader. The first few left hand notes are extremely easy to play right from square one, even with a decent tone. Then it gets harder.
I think becoming an accomplished player (top level, for example), they all rank the same. Each has different things to overcome and perfect, but since we all know there are like a gazillion truly great players on all the instruments, I figure they all are equally hard.
I used to solo quite a bit with a very accomplished pianist as my accompanist. She was praising my playing one time. I replied that I can't relate my playing a one line instrument where all the fingers fit exactly where they go-- compared to one where you could be playing 10 different notes at once and also have to judge interval distances. I think we were rehearsing the Nielsen, which she actually sight read well enough that you could tell what it was. HOW do pianists DO that?
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2020-12-14 07:05
Tom,
My Aural Theory instructor jokingly said, "Playing the piano is just like using a typewriter...you hit a key and out pops the result you expect." She then warned the piano students against repeating this to their instructors. ;^)>>>
Fuzzy
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-12-14 08:42
I take it back.
The saxophone is the hardest instrument to play.........because then you'd have to listen to it all the time (truly a hell on earth).
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2020-12-14 08:54
Paul your comments above about why violin is so difficult are all well received, particularly the one about the need to determine phrasing where such things are often decided for us clarinet players by the realities of lung capacity.
I must admit still to some jealously that the extra overhead of the string player to do this, without struggling to figure out where they can take a breath, is something I find most appealing. 
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-12-14 17:18
I also played double bass as my second study while at college (with clarinet as my first study) and with plenty of practice, it's possible to play a continuous bowed note for as long as you like, changing direction of the bow and not getting any drop-out of volume, tone or hearing the change of direction.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: concertmaster3
Date: 2020-12-14 21:30
As someone who plays most of the orchestra (strings and woodwinds), I'd probably put horn at the top of the list. My degrees are in oboe, and it's difficult, but not because playing it is that hard, the instrument is just very temperamental!
Violin has always been one of the easier ones to play. You can learn to get a decent sound from a very beginning stage. Because of it's ease of playing, I think the music for it is much more complex (playing most wind music on violin is not that bad, but playing some violin works on wind instruments takes a lot more work!).
For reference...I'm basically a 1-man orchestra
Ron Ford
Woodwind Specialist
Performer/Teacher/Arranger
http://www.RonFordMusic.com
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Author: crvsp
Date: 2020-12-14 22:52
I guess I'll put my two cents into this...
I think that BECAUSE of all the different variables that go into playing different instruments, all instruments are of roughly equal difficulty. That being said, some instruments may be slightly harder to grasp depending on the person, and the contrary is true (prodigies, for example).
Not sure if my input may be of any value since I'm in the early stages of my career, but this is what I've observed so far.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2020-12-14 23:48
Someday if we can assemble of pool of identical twins, screened out genetically for propensities towards one instrument type or another, separate them at birth, raise them in the exact same manner, and put a violin in one twin's hands, and a clarinet in another twin's hands, maybe we'll have our answer
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2020-12-15 00:29
Recorder is the worst.
I have a hard time believing any modern instrument could be so difficult. It’s much more difficult than clarinet, saxophone, and flute all put together. I’ve been concentrating on it for some time now, and am only beginning to get the hang of it.
1. The thing is plain out of tune.
2. You have to learn two sets of fingerings.
3. Each recorder model, or individual recorder, has different fingering variations.
4. The air pressure is so low that there is nothing to push against.
5. The smallest change in air pressure, air speed, or voicing results in large pitch changes.
6. The second register above C/G ( v xxx|ooo ) can be very difficult - I think the thumb hole is in the wrong place because it has to double as first register F/C ( x ooo|ooo ) It would be like using the clarinet thumb hole as the register key.
7. The low F/C ( x xxx|xxx x ) is really sharp if you blow it with normal pressure.
7b. It’s very difficult to balance the volume of the lowest range with the rest because of intonation issues.
8. You can’t open/close the thumb hole, you have to half-hole it, or “pinch” it open for the second register, and adjust how much for intonation on some notes.
9. On most horns there really aren’t any dynamics to work with. I’ve tried changing my voicing to maintain pitch while blowing harder/softer with some success.
10. As a result articulation becomes very important, and has to be very subtile.
11. To play professionally you have to learn other clefs and sight transposition (more than saxophone or clarinet).
12. The windway and fipple on plastic instruments is constantly full of “spit”.
13. It’s impossible to play high F#/C# without closing the bell.
14. It’s a chromatic instrument, but even the easiest keys have awkward fingerings.
I haven’t had a chance to play really nice ones, and some are easier to play than others, but it seems that the easier they are to play, the more “bland” they sound, and the better they sound the more cantankerous they are. I think it’s like a jet fighter - agile, but very aerodynamically unstable.
I’ve benefitted immensely because it’s improved my ear so much.
- Matthew Simington
Post Edited (2020-12-15 00:36)
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2020-12-15 00:33
Kaval. Either Bulgarian or Macedonian, but the Macedonian version usually has more intonation problems due to its construction.
These instruments are so known to be difficult (among Balkan fans in the USA) that at the annual Balkan Camps, the beginning kaval class gets a standing O at the final concert for just playing one note.
Post Edited (2020-12-15 01:54)
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2020-12-15 03:07
In "A Feast for Crows" by George R.R. Martin there's a 6-foot horn that is said to control dragons. A warrior sounds a single long note on it, then he collapses and dies with blisters on his lips and blood oozing from the tattoo on his chest. It's later found that his lungs were blackened and charred.
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Author: Qladstone
Date: 2020-12-15 08:50
Well the topic is indeed an interesting one and we find a long discussion here (of winds v.s. strings) in 2008: http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=284916&t=284267
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-12-15 16:38
I would compare instruments to languages. English, for example, is easy to muddle through in. It's easier to speak Pidgin English than Pidgin French, for example, but fiendishly difficult to really master English. Likewise, the clarinet doesn't sound as awful as the violin in the early stages of learning it, but is very difficult to play beautifully. Don't we know!
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2020-12-16 02:21
Fuzzy, But on the typewriter you (are supposed to) hit one key at a time and your fingers have inches to decipher between keys. On piano you may be playing 10 notes at a time, then leap 2 feet with your right hand for a high note without looking.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
Post Edited (2020-12-16 02:22)
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Author: kehammel
Date: 2020-12-16 03:57
Ha! When I read Matt74's post, I just had to chuckle. I play the recorder, certainly not with great skill, but well enough to cover a line in consort music in the renaissance band I played in for many years (my usual instruments there were double reeds). And now I'm trying to learn the clarinet, which I find pretty damn hard!
1. The thing is plain out of tune (OK, it's a 1920s Albert system horn, gotta be prepared to lip notes up or down).
2. You have to learn two sets of fingerings, and all on one instrument. OK, I just have to remind myself I'm playing F alto recorder in the chalumeau range, and C soprano/tenor recorder in the clarion.
3. So much resistance you have to push against for clarion B and C.
4. The low F/C and E/B are incredibly flat. Gotta get that tongue up to say even more "eee," plus lipping up like a demon. OK, it's a simple cylindrical instrument with no fancy corrections to the bore or keywork, so this is just the nature of the beast.
5. All that crazy sliding around with your fingers to get between certain notes. It's so much easier when you can pick some fingers up while you put others down and play lots of cross-fingerings. Fortunately, my Alberts are so primitive that I can pretend they are recorders for some notes.
However, Matthew's points are all perfectly valid. I guess it's all about what you're used to.
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2020-12-16 10:48
@kehammel, Thanks. I haven’t played an Albert or German horn, but if B and C are very resistant (or don’t want to speak) you might have a leak, or the keys may need regulated. The long body notes can seem a bit more “solid” than the short ones, but if it’s a real problem, there is probably something wrong. Check your other fingers in a mirror to make sure you aren’t shifting when you press the levers.
- Matthew Simington
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Author: sdr
Date: 2020-12-19 21:36
This thread is covering only half the discussion: Which instrument is hardest to play well. I would like to offer the other half: The easiest instrument to play badly. Accordion.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2020-12-19 23:01
I think one of the things that inspired me to first post here was to express appreciation for instruments falling into two basics classes: those in which, when you sit down to play, are more like a "crap shoot" in terms of how they will respond, given things like cane influencing that, and instruments that tend to respond as predictably as we humans are one day to the next: a dilemma no less faced with the the first class of instruments.
Of course this isn't to imply that instruments with incredible consistency in play from one session to the next (e.g. the finest of maintained pianos in a climate controlled environment) can't be wickedly hard, or that even a trumpet, flute, or violin doesn't suffer from variability in play due to conditions outside that of its player.
So we agree...only oboe, sometimes, is harder than clarinet to play well, right?
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The Clarinet Pages
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