 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: kehammel
Date: 2020-12-07 22:50
I'm an amateur bassoonist, and awhile ago I decided to learn the B flat clarinet just for fun. I like Balkan music, so I got started communicating with some of those folks who play with very short barrels and soft reeds. I did the same and eventually got to the point where it's easy to play my old Albert system horn in tune using, for example, a 56 mm barrel, a Fobes 2L mouthpiece, and a #2 reed.
Then I decided, why not educate myself about what skilled clarinetists do? So I've been trying some mouthpiece exercises, where the aim is to produce a C or C sharp by correct tongue placement and without biting. I've had a little vocal training, and it was not hard to figure out how to produce an "ee" while keeping my jaw down and using good abdominal support. Getting a C sharp is no problem, and I realized I had been playing all along with my tongue much lower than I thought. Especially the front of my tongue.
Then I tried the same technique on the horn, using its original 67 mm barrel. I was still crazy flat, like maybe 30 cents. With a 62 mm barrel, I can play in tune voicing this way, but I'm nowhere close with the original barrel. So here are two questions for those of you who know more-
1. Presumably, the original barrel is the length it is for a reason, so what am I still not doing, despite the successful mouthpiece exercises?
2. Do traditional Balkan clarinetists tend to play without "classical" voicing, or is this generally considered important even while playing, for example, with a #1.5 reed and a barrel less than 60 mm?
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2020-12-07 23:44
I'd say the first place to look is the #2 reed on a Fobes 2L facing. That's a close tip opening (1.04mm) and medium long (36 mm) curve. A classical player would normally use, depending on the reed brand, anything from a #3 to #4.
How much of the reed are you taking into your mouth? That can affect pitch, too.
Karl
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Author: kehammel
Date: 2020-12-08 00:08
Hello Karl. I take in about as much reed as I can without squeaking and then back off a little. This seems to give the most resonant tone. Regarding the reed strength, I have read that some professional clarinetists play successfully on reeds softer than #3, and this is what I'd prefer. So I guess the question is what are they doing that I'm not doing?
I just repeated the tests, using a Fobes 4L mouthpiece and a Pilgerstorfer Rondo #2.5 reed (I know they tend to run soft). Same good result as before with the mouthpiece test. About 25 cents flat playing an open G or a chalumeau C on the horn.
I use a double lip embouchure (I'm a bassoonist!), but trying single lip does not change the results.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2020-12-08 01:28
Someone may chime in with a solution. I'm out of my element with Albert system instruments. I think Clark Fobes designs his barrels for modern Boehm clarinets - nominally Buffets - but that may not have anything to do with this pitch issue.
When you bought this instrument was it new or used? Do you *know* that the 67mm barrel is the original equipment for this clarinet? Who is the manufacturer?
Karl
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Author: kehammel
Date: 2020-12-08 02:21
Hi Karl. The instrument is a newly reconditioned Albert by F. Barbier, from ca. 1920. The 67 mm barrel is also marked F. Barbier with the same stamp as the clarinet. I think the horn and its barrel are cylindrical as with most old clarinets. The bore is 0.57 inch.
The modern 62 mm barrel that can work for me is a Muncy synthetic diamond. Maybe it has some taper but I don't know. I haven't tried any Fobes barrels.
I have another Albert clarinet by Kohlert, same vintage or older, and I have the same intonation issues on it. So I really think it's my technique, and not any peculiarity of the instruments.
Thanks for your opinions!
Ken
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2020-12-08 04:52
Ken,
Quote:
So I really think it's my technique, and not any peculiarity of the instruments.
I play 1898/1895 Conn Alberts. Alberts of that era have very similar inonation problems to one another. Not sure about the 1920s.
Of course, coming from a different instrument over to clarinet - and straight to Albert...might provide you a unique perspective on what feels best to you.
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2020-12-08 05:04
Fuzzy wrote:
> I play 1898/1895 Conn Alberts. Alberts of that era have very
> similar inonation problems to one another. Not sure about the
> 1920s.
>
Fuzzy, for all of us who are Albert-illiterate, what are the intonation problems of those early Alberts?
Karl
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Author: kehammel
Date: 2020-12-08 05:46
Adding to Karl's question here, Fuzzy- Are your instruments low pitch (LP), which should put them at A = 440? And what barrel length, mouthpiece type, and reed strength do you find work for you?
Ken
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2020-12-08 06:28
Karl & Ken,
A few years back, I detailed the issue and asked some questions here on the BBoard...that conversation can be found: Here if you're interested in the full conversation.
However, the gist of that post pertained to all of my two-ring-right-hand, no-ring-left-hand Alberts from 1895-1920 having an identical issue:
notes which use the entire length of the instrument (E/B, F/C) are nearly a quarter tone flat.
This issue transcends maker, and instrument body material (metal, wood, hard rubber, etc.)
MichaelW shared a neat chart in that thread, showing that German system clarinets of "standard" quality seemed to have this same issue.
Now - having said that, my instruments are (essentially) Low pitch instruments - I use a modern Pete Fountain (Pomerico-made) crystal mouthpiece, and have always wondered if a period mouthpiece would remedy the issue. However, MichaelW's post made me doubt this a bit, and I've never gotten my hands on a good-quality period mouthpiece to test things out.
I have even lathed my own barrels and bells (bell with a hole in the back to shorten the long notes)...to no real effect, though removing the bell altogether seems to help the notes immensely.
As an extension to that earlier BBoard post, I'll add that I've been able to (mostly) overcome the issue by using harder reeds (I had been using #2 Marcas, and I moved up to #2.5's to help with the issue)..though there's also a lot of adjustment via embouchure and tongue position, etc. I've done it for so long now, that it seems natural to me and I don't think much about it.
Side note: I live at 7200 above sea level, in a very arid climate. When I go down to sea level, I find that I must increase my reed strength by a half strength, or things tend to go flat again. Not sure if it is the elevation, or the change in humidity.
Ken...I don't have the barrel measurements available right now, but I'll try to take some measurements and get back to you.
Warmest Regards,
Fuzzy ;^)>>>
[EDIT: Corrected Spelling]
Post Edited (2020-12-08 10:28)
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Author: kehammel
Date: 2020-12-08 07:29
Hi Fuzzy. It was interesting to read all those other posts. I did know that the long F/C and E/B are very flat on all old cylindrical clarinets, and mine are no exception. They are even flatter than other notes on the horn, which are way too flat already.
I think I need to borrow someone's modern student model B flat clarinet and see if I'm still flat. Then I'll know if the problem is me or whether it's my old clarinet.
If the problem is the clarinet, I wonder if swelling of the wood could have decreased the bore diameter, thus flattening the pitch. But I would imagine bore shrinkage would be more likely in an old grenadilla instrument, which would sharpen the pitch (Vytas Krass mentions this effect in another post).
However, for what it's worth, swelling of the wood over time is common in maple instruments such as baroque bassoons (that's what I mostly play), and then they have to be reamed to bring the pitch back up.
Thanks, everyone!
Ken
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2020-12-09 19:38
To answer question 2: I play Balkan music and I play classical music. When I play classical, I use a D'Addario X05 with 3.5 reeds and "eee" voicing. When I play Balkan, I play a Vandoren JB5 with 2 reeds and "eh" to "öh" (note the umlaut) voicing. I do occasionally play an Albert system, but the styles I play typically use either Boehm or full Boehm so I tend to stick with that.
As far as what native players do, I haven't had a chance to ask that question yet. My guess is that they don't think about it at all but "just" play.
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Author: kehammel
Date: 2020-12-09 21:58
Thanks, Katrina, that's really helpful info. So- when you're using the softer reeds, less "ee", and a more open mouthpiece, do you also end up using a shorter barrel? That's what some Greek/Turkish players advised me to do on a forum, and in fact that's how I get the pitch up to A440.
Ken
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2020-12-10 00:33
Trying to play an authentic folk or ethnic style on clarinet, if one is not born to it, can be problematic. This article https://openaccess.city.ac.uk/3983 notes some of the pitfalls. Apparently the clarinet was seen as unacceptably alien to Greek music until as late as 1895, and the police in Athens would allow it to be played only in obscure villages outside the cultural life of the city. The approved culture favored the wilder sounding handmade zournas and pipiza over the threatening clarinet interloper. Listen to the zournas with their chivaree style buzziness: https://youtube.com/watch?v=anZbfk_q1VA.
The researchers also quote from Greek players' opinions that ethnic clarinetists are often loath to share performance secrets with others.
I wonder how this accords with the advice given by Apostolos Vangelakis in his book/CD The Technique of Greek Clarinet (Fagottobooks, 2006)?
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Post Edited (2020-12-10 07:53)
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2020-12-10 02:33
The Search function will bring up some useful information that is worth checking out.
I suspect the style of music you like might suit a 'flatter' voicing of the pitch in order to give the desired tone quality, at least when compared to the voicing of a typical classical player.
All the best,
Chris.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2020-12-10 19:15
I do not use a shorter barrel. I'm somehow able to keep pitch with my accordionist, who's at 440.
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