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 Tenon Rings loose - should they be glued on?
Author: mgdesigns 
Date:   2020-11-09 15:26

Long time player, and newbie at restoration. A friend has purchase many older Boosey & Hawkes Pan American clarinets, and the tenon rings are falling off. Should they be glued back on? If so, what glue should be used?

615-481-0083

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 Re: Tenon Rings loose - should they be glued on?
Author: rmk54 
Date:   2020-11-09 18:25

No.

Use paper (or cloth) shims.

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 Re: Tenon Rings loose - should they be glued on?
Author: clarnibass 
Date:   2020-11-09 19:01

A different opinion... Yes, and specifically shellac (though the type of shellac might matter too).

I've posted before why I prefer it over shims like paper, plastic, etc. and you can also find older posts by Gordon Palmer that explain the same thing.

By the way this is for wood clarinets. I wouldn't use shellac for plastic clarinets.

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 Re: Tenon Rings loose - should they be glued on?
Author: Chris P 
Date:   2020-11-10 00:48

You can always superglue them on - that will fill in the voids between the socket rings and the wood.

Chris.

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 Re: Tenon Rings loose - should they be glued on?
Author: David Spiegelthal 2017
Date:   2020-11-10 21:58

I'm with Chris P, do it all the time. Superglue (gel-type for better filling of voids).

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 Re: Tenon Rings loose - should they be glued on?
Author: JEG 2017
Date:   2020-11-10 22:44

When I studied with Gino Cioffi in the early 70s he recommended Duco Cement for a loose ring on my A clarinet. 50 years later it's still holding.

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 Re: Tenon Rings loose - should they be glued on?
Author: LFabian 
Date:   2020-11-10 23:48

Does it matter which joint is worked on?

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 Re: Tenon Rings loose - should they be glued on?
Author: Chris P 
Date:   2020-11-11 00:44

LFabian wrote:

> Does it matter which joint is worked on?

All socket rings perform the same purpose in reinforcing the sockets to prevent them from splitting from the pressure exerted from within when the tenons are fitted, so they should all be fitted with that in mind regardless if they're barrel, lower joint or bell sockets. The last thing you want are loose socket rings as the wood can split once you assemble the joints - even loose fitting tenons can cause sockets to split if they rock inside the sockets.

If it's a split ring as you'd have on some bass clarinets, then it still has to support the socket and be an interference fit as you'd expect on whole socket rings. The screw is there to adjust them if there are humidity changes or lock the joints together if the joints remain assembled and fit in a long case.

Chris.

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 Re: Tenon Rings loose - should they be glued on?
Author: Steven Ocone 2017
Date:   2020-11-11 17:53

I prefer using paper shims to create a tight (but not too tight) fit.

Steven Ocone
Ann & Steve's Music

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 Re: Tenon Rings loose - should they be glued on?
Author: mgdesigns 
Date:   2020-11-11 21:35

Thank you for the suggestions. I have garnet shellac flakes (as I am a jeweler and hand engraver), and I may just try to gently place a few flakes in the seam between the tenon and the ring, and give it a quick heat with a heat gun. I think this would be a more permanent connection than either superglue or paper shims.

615-481-0083

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 Re: Tenon Rings loose - should they be glued on?
Author: Chris P 
Date:   2020-11-12 02:02

You don't want socket rings to be fitted permanently - you still want them to be removable as and when they need to be. No metal fittings should be fitted in such a permanent manner that they can't be removed easily if they have to be, but some metal fittings such as tenon tip rings are usually burnished on and can't be removed without any damage - if they are loose or leaking, they can be sealed by wicking superglue into the gaps between them and the wood.

If you want to fit them with shellac flakes, either heat the socket ring and melt the flakes on the inside edge and refit the socket rings while the shellac is still molten and then carefully heat them while in situ to make sure the shellac has flowed and filled in any voids.

Or dissolve the shellac flakes in alcohol and coat the socket ring and the recess with that, fit the rings and leave it for the shellac to harden which can take time as the alcohol will take time to evaporate. Heating the socket ring will speed that up.

With superglue, you can add more until the voids are all filled in and no more glue will wick into the gap between the socket ring and the wood. That's also a good way to fill any gaps between metal tipped tenons and the ends of the tenons if they're leaking.

Speaker and thumb tubes are best installed with shellac so they can be removed by heating them by inserting a heated mandrel, then pushing them out from the inside with a wooden dowel. If they're threaded, then they can be heated and the threads can be coated with beeswax before being screwed in.

Chris.

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 Re: Tenon Rings loose - should they be glued on?
Author: clarnibass 
Date:   2020-11-12 12:10

Maybe worth re-writing...

>> Thank you for the suggestions. I have garnet shellac flakes (as I am a jeweler and hand engraver), and I may just try to gently place a few flakes in the seam between the tenon and the ring, and give it a quick heat with a heat gun. I think this would be a more permanent connection than either superglue or paper shims. <<

If you meant that literally, you can't really put shellac flakes between the wood and the ring. They would just break, they are very fragile and possibly thicker than the gap.

You heat the ring (off the clarinet), melt shellac until it is covering the entire circumference, making sure the thickness is enough to fill the gap (the gap is usually tiny anyway), then put the ring fast on the clarinet (make sure to insert it all the way before the shellac starts to solidify). Then scrape any extra (careful not to scratch the wood or metal ring) and anything more can be dissolved with alcohol.

It's not really more permanent than the other options. That's a good thing, if conditions change, etc. and it's also easy to redo.

I don't like super glue for this purpose (both liquid and gel) because it's even more rigid and fragile as a gap filler (stronger as a glue though).
With epoxy, even the fast ones are pretty slow, even if they start to harden in five minutes, it takes a lot more for it to cure. Except the one minute type, which also takes a bit more to cure, but borderline to work with for this since it's so fast.
There's another reason I don't like any of these. To remove, you need to heat it to "kill" the glue, then clean it all and redo with whatever method. Just slower and more work with no advantage.

A few things I don't like with paper, plastic, etc.
They are a specific thickness, not necessarily the thickness of the gap. It is very easy to make it too tight. You can't control it completely.
Also, the gap isn't necessarily the same width the entire circumference, but the filler is.

The nice thing about shellac is that it's like an automatic exact size shim. It's also pretty rigid but not very fragile when used this way.
I don't use other heat melting glues because they are usually softer and might move slightly instead of support the wood when it is moving.

I'm not saying other methods are not good, I just prefer this one.



Post Edited (2020-11-14 09:24)

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