 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: gatto
Date: 2020-10-11 20:46
The boxwood version of the Legende (which has already been played by Martin Fröst, Nicolas Baldeyrou and others) is now in the catalogue on Buffet's website:
https://www.buffet-crampon.com/en/instruments/clarinets/legende-boxwood/
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Author: gatto
Date: 2020-10-13 16:12
Product video with Olivier Patey (Principal, Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra Amsterdam):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAId0NrfCZI
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-10-13 17:26
What I liked about that was the evaluation from the cello playing colleague who offered an evaluation of how the sound of the boxwood clarinet blended with the cellos and other strings in a unique way.
It's always important to have trusted input from other musicians sitting at some distance to give you an appraisal that is helpful.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-10-13 17:43
Buffet says you get two free periodic bore inspections of this instrument. This would lead one to believe that their boxwood is wont to warp, which unfortunately it always does. "Unfortunately" because it has wonderful acoustic properties.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-10-14 00:17
That's the issue with softer woods like rosewood. Anything is going to be softer than Mpingo.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-10-14 01:17
Grenadilla may be dense, but it's still not completely unstable and with high volume makers rushing things through, it won't have had as long to season as it really needs to give it more stability.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2020-10-14 19:47
Beautiful instrument! I wonder if new clarinets are selling well now and whether there will be many buyers for this admittedly "limited edition" model? Does anyone know the price? Above $7,000.00?
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2020-10-14 23:22
S&S have been selling boxwood clarinets to Holland for several years, so it's not a new thing for them. I'd agree with everything Patey says about playing them; it's quite fun.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-10-15 13:22
Mopani has a lot of the qualities of boxwood without the warping.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-10-15 15:12
Any wood can warp if it's rushed through production.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-10-16 01:04
Seabreeze: yes, above 7000 dollars. JL could make a better boxwood clarinet for about half that price.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Ed
Date: 2020-10-16 02:08
Ruben- The link in your signature does not seem to work
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Author: gwie
Date: 2020-10-19 02:58
My boxwood fittings by Otto Tempel (Germany) on my violin have darkened significantly over time due to oxidization...I wonder if Buffet treats or seals their boxwood so that it retains that lovely color over time?
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Author: gatto
Date: 2020-10-19 18:57
Another new video, now with Nicolas Baldeyrou (Principal, Orchestre Philharmonique de Radio France)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOy1rZtuhAA
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-10-19 19:14
gwie: there are many discussions on blogs devoted to recorders and historically informed flutes and the question of warping and darkening of colour is raised. It would appear there is no solution to either problem, darkening of colour being the lesser one.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2020-10-20 06:00
I wonder if the Greenline treatment could be applied to boxwood to produce a more stable material.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-10-20 11:13
Philip Caron wrote:
> I wonder if the Greenline treatment could be applied to boxwood
> to produce a more stable material.
And a more brittle one that that! The world really needs more brittle clarinets.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Clarimellonet
Date: 2020-10-20 19:57
Attachment: IMG_5115.jpg (1919k)
Attachment: IMG_5116.jpg (1701k)
Hi all,
Jumping in here as someone who works with boxwood for clarinets on a regular basis. In terms of the staining, there are a couple benefits to darkening the color of the boxwood, the first being uniformity of appearance. In the first picture is a complete C clarinet I just finished based on an original by Heinrich Grenser ca. 1811. The stock and barrel were from a different log as the top joint and bottom joint and thus had a different hue when finally turned and oiled, so acid staining was an easy way to ensure relative uniformity of the final appearance. Next to that clarinet are four barrels for some Baermann-System instruments, all from the same log with a rather striking variation in grain pattern and color. In the second photo are three barrel blanks that were all cut from the same log already showing variation. The second benefit of staining is the ability to artistically "age" the wood to increase price. There are well documented examples of clarinet makers artificially "flaming" boxwood joints during the turning and sanding process with a variety of methods to create the same effect as flamed maple in bassoons which was seen as highly desirable. However the flaming process would essentially char certain areas of the body which looks ridiculous on "nude" boxwood, but blends into the wood nicely during a treatment with nitric acid during the staining process.
There are several historical treatises that detail the acid staining process including the 1722 Charles Plumier "L'Art de Tourner en Perfection" that specifically mention the application for "flutes and bassoons." There are certainly examples of boxwood instruments made without staining (many of the cheaply made Parisian instruments post French Revolution were made quickly) but staining seems to have been a relatively common way to heighten the qualities of the wood without letting players know than the instrument might have been made from several completely different logs.
~Thomas
Thomas Carroll
Historical Clarinets and Chalumeaux
http://carrollclarinet.com
lotzofgrenser@gmail.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-10-20 22:57
Where do you get your artificial ivory from? I'm liking the Schreger lines in that!
I've tea stained a boxwood flute crown I made for an old Riviere&Hawkes Bb flute to match the rest of the instrument as it was only a small piece. The body joint on that flute is banana-shaped, but it plays much better in tune than other later Hawkes&Sons Bb flutes and really cuts through over a rope tension drum.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2020-10-20 22:58
Thomas,
On your website it is good to hear the chalumeau in Vivaldi's oratorio Juditha Triumphans (1716). Transcriptions of Vivaldi on the modern clarinet never have the silvery Baroque second-cousin-to-a-recorder sound that the chalumeau have. Are you playing a Denner boxwood original or copy there? Do you think at that point in music history the chalumeau already had its own characteristic performance style as distinct from the recorder's or was it still a sort of optional "double" of the recorder stylistically?
Post Edited (2020-10-20 23:59)
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-10-20 23:05
I've just listened to the Olivier Patey video. The boxwood clarinet does sound very warm, but a bit on the bright side. I wonder if they have one in the Buffet showroom here in Paris. I'll check it out.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Clarimellonet
Date: 2020-10-21 02:02
Chris,
Here's where I've ordered in the past, although you can also get it straight from the source in china on eBay. https://vermontfreehand.com/product/imitation-ivory/
One of the reasons I love this version of the artificial ivory is the Schreger lines, it's always really satisfying to see the finished product. It also has a slightly translucent quality when held up to direct light, so it's very close to the real thing.
Some of my colleagues have made instruments with the German-made Elforyn, but I haven't tried it yet. It looks equally realistic.
~Thomas
Thomas Carroll
Historical Clarinets and Chalumeaux
http://carrollclarinet.com
lotzofgrenser@gmail.com
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Author: Clarimellonet
Date: 2020-10-21 02:19
For the Vivaldi I'm playing a copy I made back in 2012. I've made chalumeaux in every type of wood including boxwood, but for this particular performance, I was using one in grenadilla of all things because the size of the hall (Wortham in Houston, TX) needed some extra projection to carry.
I tend to think the chalumeau always filled the role of a "doubler's" instrument, even later in its life. The players who were assigned to chalumeaux parts frequently performed on bassoon, oboe, recorder, and flute in addition, and given the relatively small volume of virtuoso repertoire compared to the other winds, I think it's fairly evident that except in the case of itinerant virtuosi, the court wind players were all versed on a number of instruments and able to switch from one to the other seamlessly. In the case of Juditha Triumphans, the obvious assumption would be that the two oboe players switched to "clarens" for the Bb pastorale number, and one took the solo line in the aria. Similarly, the sole appearance of chalumeaux in one number of Gluck's 1762 Orphee, and subsequent omission from the Paris revision seems to indicate that the wind players (maybe the oboes or bassoons in this case) put down their instruments and took up the chalumeaux for that single moment.
One thing that has always struck me as an obvious parallel between the chalumeau and recorder is the number of trios and quartets for the instrument in the same vein as the recorder consort. Since we know that no court (even Darmstadt) would employ three or four chalumeau players on a permanent basis for rare works like those, it's a pretty good assumption that the parts were meant to be played by woodwind doublers rather than specialists. While there were certainly those who excelled at the instrument (Klotsch, the likely dedicatee of the Fasch Concerto was heralded as an exceptional chalumeau player in addition to his skill as a bassoonist), the instrument was always listed second when a musician was praised.
Thankfully this practice would differ from the treatment of the clarinet and clarinet virtuosi in the latter part of the 18th century, though it IS interesting to note that pretty much every modern Broadway book includes some form of clarinet, again just an assumption that any woodwind player can play it, and should be able to at a moment's notice.
Thomas Carroll
Historical Clarinets and Chalumeaux
http://carrollclarinet.com
lotzofgrenser@gmail.com
Post Edited (2020-10-21 02:27)
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Author: JTJC
Date: 2020-10-21 12:25
I see from the Buffet website they say about the Boxwood Legende “Benefiting from the best of all the innovation that has come out of Buffet Crampon in recent years, notably in the treatment of wood, . . . “
Suggests they have now developed a method that allows boxwood to used more reliably. Does anyone have any idea what that might be?
Given that historically so many instruments were made from boxwood is it the case the methods by which players used to keep their boxwood instruments from warping have been lost, as with so much performance practice?
Would rigorous oiling both before and after playing help stability?
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-10-21 14:22
JT: If Buffet offer two free revisions of bore after purchase, this would suggest they have not come up with a method to stabilize boxwood. I think beeswax coating the bore might help. But from what I've understood, dryness seems to warp boxwood more than dampness.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: JTJC
Date: 2020-10-21 14:47
Ruben, Buffet day “Two quality checks for the bore will be included, free of charge, beyond the warranty period, . . . “. That does suggest they’ll keep an eye on it, but just how much work they do is questionable. That statement is probably about giving assurance around the issue of warping discussed here. However, if there was mass wrapping of this top-line model would it be economical for Buffet to start replacing joints or the whole instrument? I don’t think so. Can’t see those top players being too happy with it either. Seems to me that whatever they’ve come up with there’s a good measure of confidence these instruments will largely be ok. So, what are they doing to the wood?
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-10-21 15:11
JT: If they have come up with a solution, they are keeping it a secret. They can hardly be blamed for that I suppose. I'll get my spies on to this! ha, ha. A maker of historically informed flutes told me there is a Swiss instrument builder that makes boxwood recorders that don't warp or crack, but won't tell anybody how he achieves this. I'll have a boxwood clarinet made by JL -the company I work for- and see how it develops. Maybe I will crack before it does! (or my mind will warp)
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: jim sclater
Date: 2020-10-24 17:25
It's such a pleasure to see M. Baldeyrou, clearly at the top of his game, having such a good time.
jsclater@comcast.net
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Author: EricBlack
Date: 2020-10-24 17:38
Author: Jeroen
Date: 2020-10-24 14:29
And another hilarious video of Nicolas Baldeyrou, now featuring 2 boxwood Legendes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xok0TQcT1c
That second “boxwood” clarinet is a Mopani Legende Prototype that has also been featured in his other videos.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-10-24 21:53
They've got articulated F#/C# keys on them as well.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: gatto
Date: 2020-10-26 23:16
Now Paul Meyer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGiw1faY35g
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-10-27 00:37
Ok, the mechanism of Baldeyrou's clarinet is different. It looks like the lower joint F/C cup is triggered from below somehow. Is it a better acoustic match up with the little vent cup?
Why would Buffet go through all that trouble and not just do a thumb trigger bell cup like Wurlitzer that corrects both low F and low E ????
Those wacky French!
https://www.gerold-klarinetten.at/amadeus-de-luxe.htm
Here's a version of what I'm talking about (from Gerold of Austria).
Click on the Amadeus (second option at top); then use the arrows at the far right of clarinet image to "spin" the clarinet. Best image of the simple thumb trigger I could find.
.............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2020-10-27 03:15)
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The Clarinet Pages
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