 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: LGS316217
Date: 2020-09-03 23:13
Hi,
I got my brand new Buffet Tradition in June and broke it in according to the best practices listed here and elsewhere (I won't go into details). It did have pro tech set-up after I paid for it, too. By now it is starting to feel quite familiar, and I am happy with its intonation and all of its features. I have one lingering issue that I thought might calm down with some use, but it hasn't: the joints are really super tight, all but mouthpiece to barrel. I use enough good quality cork grease with every assembly (and clean off excess afterwards), try to be as gentle as I can, use all the tricks I've seen here to disassemble, but it's still a struggle both to assemble and disassemble. It's really hard to line up the bridge or barrel because the joints don't want to twist easily, so they twist too far or not far enough, etc. Holding the joints the "proper" hardware-friendly way doesn't allow me to get a good enough grip to overcome the friction. At this point I'm worried about the long term stress all this handling will have on alignment of the hardware and on the tenons. Any home remedies to suggest? Or am I best off taking it back to the tech?
Amy Paul
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2020-09-03 23:17
Take it to a tech and have some wood shaved off the tenon. This is almost universally needed on new Buffet clarinets.
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-09-04 00:12
This is normal and should ONLY be dealt with by a SKILLED woodwind specialist who knows exactly what they're doing so they only remove as little wood as is needed from the tenon rings. Removing the high spots, then checking and adjusting the fit will ensure the tenons fit well in their sockets and don't rock around which is most important with the middle tenon to ensure your long Bb remains in regulation and then the top tenon that fits in the barrel so the barrel doesn't wobble around whilst playing.
Don't let anyone near it with coarse sandpaper or files or even just bunging it on a lathe as that can remove too much wood from the tenon rings making the joints unstable. It's much easier to cure the binding tenons if they're too tight than having to repair them if they're too loose.
And if anything, it's better the tenons are on the tight side than being loose. They were a good fit at the point of manufacture, but wood moves with humidity changes and that can't be taken into account too early on. It should be covered by the warranty to have this done and should be expected with every brand new clarinet.
Some clarinets have metal sleeved tenons and rarer still are metal lined sockets on clarinets (they're mostly seen on pro level oboes and cors) which means the tolerances can be tight from the word go (just like a sax tenon in its socket or tuning slide on a brass instrument) with no problems of them binding after a few weeks.
But wood is a live material and that nature needs to be understood and dealt with as and when it happens instead of it and the makers being cursed for not doing their job properly when they can only do so much in this aspect.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: ACCA
Date: 2020-09-04 13:50
Surely, you'd want the tech to sand down the cork on the tenon, not the wood?!
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Author: m1964
Date: 2020-09-04 16:49
ACCA wrote:
> Surely, you'd want the tech to sand down the cork on the tenon,
> not the wood?!
It's not the cork, as Chris said above it's most likely binding tenons.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2020-09-04 17:26
On Buffets the problem is not the cork, it is the diameter of the inner shoulder. This is a well known Buffet problem of long standing.
Tony F.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-09-05 00:58
You don't want them to sand anything. It's best done by lightly shaving the tenon rings down using a sharp scraper as that leaves a clean, even finish.
Sanding can round the ends of the tenons off if done without any consideration.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2020-09-06 09:24
>> Don't let anyone near it with coarse sandpaper or files or even just bunging it on a lathe as that can remove too much wood from the tenon rings making the joints unstable. <<
The amount removed and how well it's done depends more on the skill of the person doing it rather than method. I occasionally do this on a lathe. I had a clarinet where the tenon diameter measured more than 0.2mm larger than the socket. Scraping it would take ages and and not be any more accurate. Maybe some people use the "sneak up on it" method on the lathe, which tens to get over/under sized diameters, especially for someone inexperienced.
>> Surely, you'd want the tech to sand down the cork on the tenon, not the wood?! <<
As others mentioned, it depends on what part is binding. On new clarinets with binding tenons it's almost always the wood and not the cork (could be the cork, just had one where it was, it's just very uncommon in comparison).
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Author: gatto
Date: 2020-09-06 21:43
I had similar problems (with new bells and barrels). My tech put the clarinet piece with the tenon into his CNC (?) machine and removed a little (!) bit of wood. I think it is a matter of only hundredths of millimeters.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-09-07 10:37
That's overkill when it can be done by hand.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: gatto
Date: 2020-09-07 15:13
But woodwind techs have such a machine. It is a matter of one or two minutes.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-09-07 17:27
I do have a CNC lathe, but I'll be buggered if I'll ever use it to skim tenons down with.
It may take "a matter of one or two minutes" to do once everything else has been set up to do it, but it'll take at least an hour to programme it to do that with my lack of computer skills.
No thanks - I can gt the job done much easier and definitely much faster the old fashioned way. Plus doing it by hand I have more control of skimming the high spots and making it the fit I want it to be. If that happens to take maybe half an hour or thereabouts to do as opposed to "a matter of one or two minutes", then so be it.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: gatto
Date: 2020-09-07 18:39
Sorry, I did not want to lecture anybody. Actually I do not know any details about the procedure. I can only tell, two times when this was done with my clarinets I was present in the shop, but only in the salesroom. So I could not see how the tech did it with his CNC, but he told me that he used it. Both times it took less than five minutes. But who knows, maybe he was just using sandpaper. ;-)
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2020-09-08 08:56
Have a similar thing with the replacement upper joint for my Bb. I do trust myself to deal with it, but otherwise, Chris P is correct. You need as much width on the tenon as you can tolerate to prevent joint wobble, so only take off what is absolutely necessarily. It’s not just Buffets; it’s not the cork.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-09-08 11:12
Brand new Leblancs also had their tenons swell up in the first few weeks of being played, same with Selmers, Yamahas and many other wooden clarinets. It's just the nature of wood and should be expected. Selmer Prologue had plastic lined tenons and sockets which could be a tight fit and still not bind because of the waxy nature of plastic.
The worst fitting tenons I've seen are on B&H clarinets with metal tenon tips and also Buffet Prestiges where the tenons were too narrow for their sockets causing the joints to rock. In these cases, they can only be dealt with by replacing the metal tip rings which is expensive. Loose tenons without metal tips can be cured by building up the tenon rings either with superglue and wood dust or carbon fibre and machining to size, grafting on a wooden sleeve or fitting a metal or plastic tenon tip.
Makers don't know where their instruments are going to end up or what conditions they'll be subjected to which could mean the difference of the tenons fitting well, being too loose or too tight depending on humidity levels.
They're made to fit at the point of manufacture and the warranty should cover having them resized as and when they need to be. Which is why it's best buying a new clarinet from a woodwind specialist with on site repair facilities.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: bradfordlloyd
Date: 2020-09-08 16:16
First, it's unbelievable to me that this is now to be expected on new instruments! Is there no pride on manufacturing left in the world? (It certainly reinforces my preference for vintage instruments!)
Second, I acquired a long sought after instrument recently which was essentially new old stock and while being almost 20 years old, I suspect had never been assembled or played. When I put it together, I found that neither of the included, standard barrels fit over the metal-ringed tenon. It wasn't even close -- the tenon was easily 0.3-0.5 mm too large! It took a couple of hours of careful sanding down of the receivers in each barrel (since I don't have a lathe) to make them fit. Now they work perfectly.
Good luck! I hope that you find a simple solution!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-09-08 23:34
What has to change is peoples perceptions and expectations from running around like headless chickens shouting "OMG I like sooo can't believe this is like happening to my like brand new clarinet?" to understanding the nature of wood and how it will change with humidity changes.
As Buffets are undoubtedly the biggest sellers of clarinets, then perception is skewed that it's just a Buffet thing when it's something that can happen with any brand new wooden instrument by any other maker where the tenons were fitting well at the point of manufacture and began to bind up during the playing in period.
It's the total lack of education and explanation that's the problem - ALL brand new wooden instruments will experience some degree or other of movement and binding tenons once they're being played from new, all sellers should explain this can happen to the buyer and the buyer has to understand this is something they're likely to experience within the first few weeks of owning a brand new wooden instrument and what to do when it happens. That way, no-one will feel they're being hard done by. Yes it's an inconvenience, but it's easily rectified by a repairer and dealt with when it begins to happen.
Also what is never mentioned is the ideal time to buy new wooden instruments - the worst time is between October and March as that's when humidity levels are dropping. The chances of cracks happening is greater during this time, but not to say they can't happen at any other time.
If you buy a wooden instrument, you're taking a gamble. Wood isn't as stable a material as you think it is.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2020-09-11 08:21
On the one hand, temperatures and humidity change and sometimes it's not possible to make sure the clarinet works wherever it is exactly the same as in the (probably) controlled factory. There is a significant difference just between the two big cities in my tiny country. Too tight is better than too loose... as long as you can fix it.
On the other, when I bought my first wood clarinet (Buffet R13) in the early 90s it never had this problem, was never loose, and I don't remember any other student or teachers ever mentioning this as an issue, let alone a common issue. Since that was before the internet (i.e. before clarinet things were talked about on the internet) maybe this type of info just didn't flood everywhere. I occasionally see an even much older clarinet with that problem, the owner moved, or after many years of not playing it.
I guess it's possible that clarinet material was really more stable back then... no idea...
Post Edited (2020-09-12 09:13)
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Author: LGS316217
Date: 2020-09-21 04:10
Thank you, many interesting perspectives here. For those interested, here's a little context on my situation thT prompted this inquiry...
-My new Buffet Tradition is the first generation, so the instrument was stored at the dealer since 2017 or thereabouts. It's essentially new old stock. So, I expected that the wood had probably changed a little. I don't blame Buffet for the issue I'm having. Why did I buy this one? Because I got a deal so spectacular, it was worth taking a shot. And because all my other horns are vintage, I more or less expect to have to take them in for TLX/adjustments from time to time. So having to take it to my tech doesn't bother me that much (although, I'd of course be happier if the new one was totally plug and play.
-As I mentioned, my other clarinets are vintage. In fact, this is my first brand new clarinet ever! One reason I wanted it was to rotate it with my pre R13 Buffet, my absolute favorite instrument, to hopefully extend the life of the old timer.
-I think there are pros/cons to today's new instruments vs. vintage ones. There are things to love about either, and things to drive you nuts.
So overall I'm pretty content. Thanks for all the input. My clarinet was bought in June. It's getting to be fall weather here in New England; I've decided to see how much it loosens now and then decide about getting the tenons shaved.
Amy Paul
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